Is the concept of The Fall reasonable?

Exactly.

So if the Fall occurred, we are fallen and have a perverted sense of what fairness is. So if someone is born with a severe birth defect, then this is really fair even though it seems to us unfair. So we can't judge properly about fairness. So if I do something unfair, I might do so not knowing I was being unfair. If I didn't know I was being unfair, then I can't be blamed for being unfair, anymore than we blame (in a moral sense) a raccoon for getting in our attic.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-26-2006 11:08 AM

The good's getting better and the bad's getting worse? I don't get it.I'll just comment on an emotional reaction I had to the worldview presented in your post: it seems suffocatingly moral. Everything's either good or bad--no room for the amoral.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-26-2006 11:13 AM

Would you agree that life is a bootcamp?

Didn't mean to present it as a progressive thing necessarily. Possibly cumulative. But that wasn't even the point. I didn't realize my post was that comprehensive of absolutely everything. I thought we were discussing the Fall.But in any case, that's probably true -- there is no amoral.

No.Learning period but not exactly "training." Testing period, sorting period.But there's no sergeant calling the shots. You're on your own.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-26-2006 12:44 PM

Because the fall occurred the concept of fairness/unfairness came in. That in itself is what is perverted. IOW people questioning whether God is fair/unfair is a perversion. Its simply another example of our rebellion and independance-seeking.Putting God in the dock has to be the most ridiculous thing anyone could do. Would anyone ask him to "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" - so help him what precisely?Be that as it may. Our perversion doesn't mean the mechanism is totally kapot. It limps along outputting its multitude of perversions. But we are, He says, in sufficient receipt of ability to make correct decisions but we chose not to.Now we can argue about that with him too. Its just more perverted thinking: but if he says we know what is right but are captive to sin and chose to do the opposite and that even in our helpnessness we are culpable - then the argument is ultimately futile.We fell - we weren't pushed. He just offers to clear up the mess of our own makingBetter to bow before him than stand before him I would hold.

You're on target this morning.

My own view is that we, in falling, made it what it is and God uses what happened as a means to achieve his plan: giving created beings free will and an opportunity to express it. Choosing for him or against him. In all ways the blame falls on us for wrong and anything right is attributable to him.Absolute genius above all genius when one begins to get it and my grasp is tenous at best. Its one of those eternity views that are so difficult to get the head around for us 'linear time' captivated creatures. God knew Christ would be put to death. He put him on the altar to enable the rescue mission yet those who crucified him are culpable.

Baiting the hook more appropriately would be a better analogy if it were true.Thanks Faith

So our moral sense is only perverted when it comes to things like reacting negatively to birth defects and wondering why that had to happen. It is perverted of us to even raise a philosophical question like that.It would seem that the concept of the Fall includes the corollary idea that it cannot be examined since we are not capable of examining it. It's like an organization that has as one of its rules the rule that no rule can be questioned.

I expect Iano will have a fine answer to this, but I want to get my two cents in as I'm on my way out the door to church -- going to be late, alas.I don't get where you think it can't be questioned. Just because we have answers doesn't mean you can't ask questions. Ask away.Reacting negatively to birth defects is a GOOD. We should mourn such suffering. God would have us do so. We should work to make life better for sufferers. God would have us do so. We are not like those who believe in karma, who just shrug and say, They were meant to suffer for their sins. We are expected to lament our condition and try to improve the lot of all who suffer from it, while knowing it is all our own fault -- not the fault of the one suffering from the defect --(it would be the fault of an ancestor of that one anyway, not his own) -- but OUR fault collectively.

No, the real perversion here is the way that your religion attempts to undermine and destroy the whole idea of justice.Your religion depicts God as actign in ways that aremanbifestly unjust and then demaning that we should ignore that and pretend that those actions must be just. You reduce God to a petty tyrant who must be praised with sycophantic lies. If there is any truth in the Christian idea of God it is your ideas that are perverted..

Our moral compass is at its least perverted when we shrink back in abhorrance from such things. It is the much-kicked-around and dirt-encrusted little gem of Gods brilliance within us that reacts so. That which wants good for all and hates bad.When our asking "why?" results in us pointing the finger at God and ignores the three fingers pointing back at ourselves and what we have done with our dominion - is when the perversion commences.Whilst it is ultimately perverse to pose such philsophical questions it is not at all surprising that it happens. God understands why, loves us in spite of us hurling insult and bile at him and offers still to haul us out of the mire. During this time of dispensation, everybody, in being allowed to operate as free agents, has the right to question God. In doing so and hearing answers, His hope is that they might well come to know him. A person who comes to know God considers questioning him as completely irrelevant. In their better moments anyway.The "right to question" is God-given as is the right to do anything else. But it doesn't make it any less perverse to do so. Perverts, of which I (without Christ) am one, cannot but help act perversely.This message has been edited by iano, 26-Feb-2006 06:42 PM

Justice involves at its core the idea that law breaking will result in conviction and punishment. We didn't lick that idea off a stone either - we got the basic working model from him.God is just in convicting and punishing law breakers you will probably agree. So what is it that you find unjust about Gods actions in relation to the fall?