Is the concept of The Fall reasonable?

The idea here is not to discuss whether or not there actually was a Fall of man, but rather whether or not such a doctrine could reasonably explain the human condition as we know it.According to the doctrine I am referring to, when man sinned, he fell into depravity along with all his posterity. Nature also degenerated and became arbitrarily cruel.Some posters have suggested that this idea solves no problem, but I myself have not engaged specifically in a discussion of this issue, except very briefly. I think they are saying that the Fall would have been God's fault because he knew it was going to happen.I'm not sure at the moment precisely where I stand, but provisionally I would argue that the concept of a Fall makes sense--that is, it could be an explanation of the human condition.

Did you want to discuss this in a science forum (perhaps [forum=-12]) or a social and religious forum (perhaps [forum=-6])?

Well, it's a philosophical topic, not a scientific topic. Faith and belief, I suppose.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I can see absolutely nothing that is explained by the concept of the Fall.The only thing that I find unique about humans is our capability to ameliorate the negative effects of nature. We are the only species that really considers critters other than our own breed, and even considers those we may never see in person. The idea of an Endangered Species list is a uniquely human concept. The idea of a veterinarian is uniquely human. The idea of research to cure desease is uniquely human. The idea of helping others not of your family, your group, your nation is uniquely human. Doctors Without Borders is uniquely human.So if there is a Human Condition it is hardly the result of some Fall, but rather of some great gift.Maybe the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

As I've said a few times here, the most exciting discovery I made in the process of becoming a Christian was Original Sin / the Fall, which made "everything" completely clear to me, explained "everything," all the misery on earth, all the human conflicts, wars, abuse, cruelty to others, cruelty to children, made sense out of the idea of sin which often doesn't make much sense to atheists -- the Works. This revelation may have been a bigger event for me than being saved. Intellectually speaking anyway. Spiritually speaking being saved beats everything. Of course the Fall explained why I needed to be saved too.So it was certainly my impression that "such a doctrine could reasonably explain the human condition as we know it" but I don't know that I have much more to say about it than that, unless you can focus the topic on something specific.Here's what a great Calvinist document, the Westminster Confession, has to say about the Fall:The Spurgeon Library | Page not found

for the fall to explain anything, one has to assume perfection is the goal or first nature. there is no reason to assume such. and the illogic of a death-free state ever existing in this universe is... totally unneccessary.perfection is an artificial idea created by the greeks and is incompatible with the random beauty of nature. death is the recycling of materials into other things. death is the unselfish making way for new. the fall is impossible in the reality of history and moreover it simply makes no sense.

When was this document you quote written?

The Westminster Confession was written in 1646 and you can find it here.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

1646

It is worth noting that discussion on an earlier thread dealt primarily with the question of whether the Fall explained the apparent contradiction between the idea of a benevolent creator-God and the pain and suffering involved within Nature.Before we can ask if the concept of the Fall can explain anything we have to ask if it makes sense. And I think that the answer is "no" unless you are prepared to make assumptions about God that would be uncomfortable to many Christians.For instance there is the question of whether God intended the Fall. If the answer is "no", then humans can, on occasion, thwart God's plans. If the answer is "yes", however we come to the question of why God would intend something which is regarded as wrong.We also must ask what is the nature of the Fall. Was it simple disobedience for which God decreed a punishment, lasting to this day, as a plain reading of Genesis says. Or was it acquiring a conscience from eating the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Or something else ? (and if the latter why is it not mentioned in Genesis ?)

From the Westminster Confession, posted at my Message 6:

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I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.

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For God's glory. All things are for God's glory, for the exaltation of perfection, the perfection of everything good. How does God get glory? From His own created beings. He isn't going to get glory otherwise. Some of us love Him and give Him glory -- for His greatness and beauty and wisdom in all things, including for permitting the Fall, although we don't yet understand His reasons -- His immense goodness in ways we DO understand makes us know that whatever His reasons are, they are good, and makes us willing to tolerate such ambiguities and unanswerable questions until it pleases Him to answer them. Some of His creation are rather stingy with the glory to God, prefer to find fault with everything He does. He will receive glory from those of us who love Him though. It was simple disobedience of a direct command from God, for which a clear punishment was decreed in advance. Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...or... in that day thou shalt die.

quote:

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Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

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This message has been edited by Faith, 02-19-2006 06:29 PM

An amazing post Faith, well thought and effectively communicated. I would say that, it largely agrees with what I thought already about this, though was unable to word.As a side note, robinrohan rejected the concept of a God that does things we might consider cruel, for some greater good that we might not comprehend. Do I take it that you feel otherwise about it?

Yes, of course. God is beyond our reckoning. This is what faith in God is, to know from what He has revealed of Himself that He is good and trustworthy, that what He has promised He will fulfill, and that the things we don't comprehend are also good and that some day we will understand how.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-19-2006 06:50 PM

There's always the concept of the "fortunate fall," although if you were about to be admitted to a Nazi concentration camp, perhaps this argument would not have much weight with you.The standard Christian answer, I think, is that God permitted sin in order to have free will. Even God cannot make a round square. If you have the freedom to do something good, you have the freedom to do something bad too. Otherwise the doing good would be meaningless.