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Author
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Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity
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dwise1
Member Posts: 5951 Joined: 05-02-2006 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 811 of 1864 (901113)
11-04-2022 8:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 787 by candle2
11-02-2022 5:38 PM
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Re: Simplistically Speaking
The very first day Biden was in office he stopped the
pipeline from transporting oil, even though trucking it
would be two to three times more costly. Uh, sorry, I'm just a retired engineer who has always thought like an engineer, but.. well, things being done have to be done for some purpose, right? I mean, it's not like some hazy hand-waving BS that nobody ever wants to specify in any manner. I'm a retired Chief Petty Officer which means that I live for training and training opportunities. I'm also a retired engineer which means that I live for specifications and results. So then please answer those very basic questions: where does/did that pipeline originate, where does/did it go to, and for what purpose? My understanding is that all that pipeline was for was to transport Canadian oil to US ports for export outside of the US. IOW, none of that Canadian oil had anything to do with the oil market in US economincs. Do you know otherwise?
The cost of food and others necessities increased at or
near the same rate. Only in the US? No, of course not! The entire world economy has been hit with inflation and is trying to deal with it. We are doing a lot better than many other countries. Thanks to Biden! Oh, and what would have happened with a Republican administration? Well, the Republican members of Congress all voted against any and all measures to deal with inflation. So under a Republican administration we would be far worse off. For that matter, the closest thing Republicans have to an economic plan is the same one that former Prime Minister Liz Truss tried. The reason why she's a former PM (and with the shortest time in office) is because her economic policy blew up the British economy. Yeah, that failed economic plan is what the Republicans want to use against our economy. Remember:
- Republicans have no plan for dealing with inflation.
- Republicans persistently vote against any and all efforts to deal with inflation.
- Republicans persistently vote against any and all efforts to improve the financial situation of Americans (eg, lowering the cost of prescriptions, capping the amount seniors have to pay for medication, capping the cost of insulin to $35 as opposed to making it so expensive that diabetics have to choose between food or rent or the only medication that can keep them from dying).
- The Republican economic plan is identical to the exact-same failed plan that Liz Truss used to blow up the British economy.
Taq, I am 69 years old, ... Are you on Social Security and/or Medicare? The Republicans want to get rid of it. GOP leadership in Congress have stated that they want to change how we fund it so that its funding has to be renewed every five years, but Ron Johnson (Senate spokesman for Russian disinformation) wants that to be done every year, thus setting up those programs' demise. McCarthy has presented his plan to reduce benefits in both programs and promises to destroy the US economy in order to get that. How? By refusing to raise the debt limit which would result in the government defaulting on paying its debt which would result in destroying the US' credit rating.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 787 by candle2, posted 11-02-2022 5:38 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 917 by Phat, posted 11-26-2022 4:10 PM | | dwise1 has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 812 of 1864 (901119)
11-05-2022 1:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 784 by ringo
11-02-2022 3:33 PM
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Feisty Ringo Demands Answers
ringo writes: I'll ask you one more time: Why would I do what a fictional character tells me to do? Well then why do you believe that in the beginning was the message? Even before humans could even write or speak! Do you believe that the message predated humans?
And why WOULDN'T you do it if you really believed that character was real? Because I am honest with Jesus. I don't expect Him to smite me for disobedience but I DO expect to feel conviction. Eventually, I will change. And to be fair, I know of very few people... believers or nonbelievers...who would go anywhere near giving everything up. If that makes us all doomed goats so be it. And I'm going to ask Him to make you do it as well. It's not fair for you to skate. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 784 by ringo, posted 11-02-2022 3:33 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 817 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 12:15 PM | | Phat has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 813 of 1864 (901130)
11-05-2022 11:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 807 by Phat
11-04-2022 2:58 PM
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Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
Phat writes: Because Jesus had not as of yet a physical body.
The question was: Why not? If Jesus was around at the time, was He a spirit? If so, what distinguished Him from the Holy Spirit or God the Spirit?
Phat writes: If He had had a body before He was born, He would not have even needed to be born.
Why did He "need" to be born? Why couldn't He just "wander in one day from the desert"?
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 807 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 2:58 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 814 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:52 AM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 816 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:57 AM | | ringo has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 814 of 1864 (901132)
11-05-2022 11:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 813 by ringo
11-05-2022 11:42 AM
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Some good questions
ringo writes: If Jesus was around at the time, was He a spirit? If so, what distinguished Him from the Holy Spirit or God the Spirit? Good question. One would think that the ONLY thing that distinguished Him was the body...
Why did He "need" to be born? Why couldn't He just "wander in one day from the desert"? Another good question. And I refuse to look up any apologetic answers. Let us marinate on this one for a while.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 813 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 11:42 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 818 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 12:17 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 815 of 1864 (901133)
11-05-2022 11:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 808 by Phat
11-04-2022 3:05 PM
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Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
Phat writes: If Jesus was Gods one and only son, He most certainly did exist.
Non sequitur. YOU did not exist until you BECAME your father's son. Even if you are your father's only son, you still did not exist until you were born.
Phat writes: Otherwise, your cockamamy explanation requires God to go and find a woman (a human woman at that) to have sex with in order to even have a son!
That is exactly what happened, according to the Bible.
Phat writes: We are talking Spirit. Not material lumber.
Irrelevant. We're talking about BECOMING. Nothing exists until it BECOMES what it becomes. If a spirit BECOMES flesh, it's the same as a tree BECOMING a house. The house did not exist until it BECAME a house.
Phat writes: If you were God, your son could and would exist the moment he became a gleam in his father's eye...
Nonsense. You know better than that. A gleam in the eye is not a son.
Phat writes: What's more, your son would do what you yourself could not do. Die.
Non sequitur. Besides which, the "ability" to die is irrelevant if He also has the ability to rise from the dead.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 808 by Phat, posted 11-04-2022 3:05 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 816 of 1864 (901136)
11-05-2022 11:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 813 by ringo
11-05-2022 11:42 AM
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Why Not?
Eventually, I will change. And to be fair, I know of very few people... believers or nonbelievers...who would go anywhere near giving everything up. If that makes us all doomed goats so be it. And I'm going to ask Him to make you do it as well. It's not fair for you to skate. Add by edit. This brings up another point. If Jesus wandered in one day from the desert and healed many people, teaching His disciples to do the same, why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe? Why did He even allow skepticism? Why did He give you the right to label Him fictitious and ignore Him?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 813 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 11:42 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 819 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 12:23 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 817 of 1864 (901138)
11-05-2022 12:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 812 by Phat
11-05-2022 1:35 AM
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Re: Feisty Ringo Demands Answers
Phat writes: Well then why do you believe that in the beginning was the message?
I didn't say i believed that. I said the Bible says that.
Phat writes: Do you believe that the message predated humans?
Of course. There are lots of other social species. And you still haven't answered the question: Why would I do what a fictional character tells me to do?
Phat writes: Because I am honest with Jesus. I don't expect Him to smite me for disobedience but I DO expect to feel conviction.
That's not being honest. Just calling him "Jesus" is not being honest, since you reject everything we know about him. You should call your made-up god something else. How about Barney Rubble?
Phat writes: And to be fair, I know of very few people... believers or nonbelievers...who would go anywhere near giving everything up.
The disciples, the early church, the widow with two mites, the widow who fed Elisha. And here's a new one for you: When Elisha became Elijah's assistant, he killed his oxen and used the wood from his plow to cook them and he fed them to the people. (1 Kings 19:21) And since you have no respect for the Bible, in history there were monastic people from various religions. And today there are the Hutterites; they own everything in common - and they are VERY prosperous.
Phat writes: It's not fair for you to skate.
Of course it is. Why won't you THINK about the question for once? Why would I do what a fictional character tells me to do? I don't do what Long John Silver says. I don't do what Bilbo Bagins says. i don't do what Oliver Twist says. Why would I? They are fictional characters. I don't believe they exist. Why would I do what they say? Answer that question.
Phat writes: It's not fair for you to skate.
From now on, I'm just going to call you an idiot if you bring up that idiotic point.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 812 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 1:35 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 820 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 12:23 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 818 of 1864 (901139)
11-05-2022 12:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 814 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:52 AM
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Re: Some good questions
Phat writes: One would think that the ONLY thing that distinguished Him was the body...
And he didn't have the body until He was born. Case closed.
Phat writes: And I refuse to look up any apologetic answers.
Good.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 814 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:52 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 819 of 1864 (901140)
11-05-2022 12:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 816 by Phat
11-05-2022 11:57 AM
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Re: Why Not?
Phat writes: If Jesus wandered in one day from the desert and healed many people, teaching His disciples to do the same, why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe?
The two phrases in that sentence are unrelated. Try it this way: If Jesus was born in Bethlehem on Christmas Day and healed many people, teaching His disciples to do the same, why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe? So the actual question is: Why on earth dint He just *make* everyone believe? That's my question to you.
Phat writes: Why did He even allow skepticism?
Because skepticism is a good thing.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 816 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 11:57 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.0
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Message 820 of 1864 (901141)
11-05-2022 12:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 817 by ringo
11-05-2022 12:15 PM
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Re: Feisty Ringo Demands Answers
If you are so sure that Jesus is fictitious, that must make you infallible.  And for the record, a gleam in God's eye is instant Creation. God either created Jesus (as JW's claim) before anything else (Michael The Arch Angel) or more likely God had the gleam ever since He existed. You cant expect God to follow the natural laws that humans do. When God imagines, He creates. When humans imagine, they merely dream and fantasize. In order to actually build a house out of a tree, one must plan, saw, pound nails, and know how to measure and level up the planks. God could simply bypass the tree. In fact, He built the church on the Rock of revelation given to Peter.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 817 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 12:15 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 822 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 12:38 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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candle2
Member Posts: 850 Joined: 12-31-2018 Member Rating: 1.2
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Message 821 of 1864 (901143)
11-05-2022 12:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 786 by ringo
11-02-2022 3:43 PM
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Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
Ringo, was this a hallucination by Paul, or did he lie? 1Corinthians 10:1-4 "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. And did all eat the same spiritual meat. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." The God that led the Israelites out of Egypt was Christ. Jesus was the member of the God kind (family) that was In the cloud. Jesus was the member of the God kind that wrote the the 10 Commandments on stone-in order to show their permanence. The Apostle Thomas understood this perfectly, which is why he called Jesus "My Lord and my God." John 20:28.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 786 by ringo, posted 11-02-2022 3:43 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 823 by ringo, posted 11-05-2022 12:43 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 822 of 1864 (901145)
11-05-2022 12:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 820 by Phat
11-05-2022 12:23 PM
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Re: Feisty Ringo Demands Answers
Phat writes: If you are so sure that Jesus is fictitious, that must make you infallible
Nope. I didn't say I was "so sure". It's just a logical conclusion, based on lack of evidence. It's the same as your own lack of belief in unicorns. Are you "so sure" that they don't exist? Does your lack of belief make you infallible? Your inability to read my posts does make you illiterate though.
Phat writes: And for the record, a gleam in God's eye is instant Creation.
You're just parroting dogma again. Say something sensible.
Phat writes: God either created Jesus (as JW's claim) before anything else...
There you go. Now you're on solid ground, following the JWs.
Phat writes: ... or more likely God had the gleam ever since He existed.
That kinda destroys the whole idea of the trinity, doesn't it? Why would God need a gleam in the eye if Jesus already existed?
Phat writes: You cant expect God to follow the natural laws that humans do.
Sure I can. Watch me. (Why would God violate His own laws?)
Phat writes: When God imagines, He creates.
Dogma. Want a cracker?
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 820 by Phat, posted 11-05-2022 12:23 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 823 of 1864 (901148)
11-05-2022 12:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 821 by candle2
11-05-2022 12:27 PM
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Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
candle2 writes: Ringo, was this a hallucination by Paul, or did he lie? 1Corinthians 10:1-4
The Exodus is fiction.
candle2 writes: The God that led the Israelites out of Egypt was Christ.
Nope. Christ wasn't born until centuries later. And the Exodus is fiction.
candle2 writes: The Apostle Thomas understood this perfectly, which is why he called Jesus "My Lord and my God." John 20:28.
What Thomas believed is irrelevant. The Romans believed that Jupiter and Mars were gods.
Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 821 by candle2, posted 11-05-2022 12:27 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 827 by Phat, posted 11-07-2022 12:01 PM | | ringo has replied |
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candle2
Member Posts: 850 Joined: 12-31-2018 Member Rating: 1.2
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Message 824 of 1864 (901215)
11-06-2022 7:01 AM
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Reply to: Message 802 by ringo
11-04-2022 12:07 PM
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Re: Jewish chronicles and the big JC
Ringo, read Luke 24:25-27 "Then He said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all he prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself." In other words, Jesus stated plainly that He pointed out to all the OT prophets all the OT scriptures that pertained to Him. In order for Him to have been able to do that He would have, by necessity, had pre-existence before His human birth by Mary. What was Luke's issue? Was he lying? Was he deceived? Was he doing mushrooms, which caused him to hallucinate? The only way you can maintain that Christ was not the Creator of all that exists is to deny, deny, deny. And, that is not a good premise in which to reach a reasonable conclusion.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 802 by ringo, posted 11-04-2022 12:07 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 826 by ringo, posted 11-07-2022 11:19 AM | | candle2 has not replied |
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Taq
Member Posts: 10077 Joined: 03-06-2009 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 825 of 1864 (901251)
11-07-2022 10:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 788 by candle2
11-02-2022 7:34 PM
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Re: Simplistically Speaking
candle2 writes: The Dixiecrats were Democrats. Besides Strom Thurmond one other Dixiecrat might have done so. However, Strom did not switch until the mid 60s. By that time he did not have the same rhetoric The racist Southern Democrats defected over to the Republican party. That's a fact. That's where they remain. You also seem to ignore modern history. Which party is fighting for minority rights? Democrats or Republicans? At which rallies to you see the battle flag of the Confederacy? Is it at Democratic rallies, or Republican ones? Who is fighting against Affirmative Action and Voting rights that were part of the Civil Rights Act? It isn't Democrats.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 788 by candle2, posted 11-02-2022 7:34 PM | | candle2 has not replied |
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