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Member (Idle past 6269 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Meaning Of The Trinity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Candle3 Member Posts: 981 Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Tangle, I understand that there are theistic evolutionists,
but you are not one of them. You have stated that you are a hard atheist. A hard atheist does not believe in God. An agnostic doesnot totally deny the existence of a Creator God, but an atheist, especially a hard to the core atheist, does. A hard atheist cannot fall back on just evolution; thehard atheist has the extra burden of defining how life began. The complexity of the simple cell is completelydevastating to atheists. Most atheists will not admit this, but deep inside they know this to be true. Furthermore, the lack of transitional fossils is fatal fortheistic evolutionists. TE's are insultinly dishonest when they insist that thereare many intermediate fossils. If the fossils were there, they would be craming themdown our throats. But, they are not there. Even Darwin, who believed that the simple cell was madeof jelly, understood that the lack of transitional fossils would relegate his theory to fantasy. God creates by design, not by chance. God spoke theplants and animals into existence. He created Adam and Eve with His own hands. TE's are not helping God's cause by substituting lies forHis truth.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18082 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: Telling the truth is not dishonest. Perhaps you meant “insultingly honest” - in opposing the lies of the Creation Cult.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9663 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
candle2 writes:
A hard atheist cannot fall back on just evolution; thehard atheist has the extra burden of defining how life began. It doesn't seem to matter how many times it's said, you guys still don't get it. An atheist does not believe in god(s). That's it it doesn't mean that we believe in something else instead, nor does it require us to come up with a fantasy alternative to how life started. It just means we don't believe in god(s).
The complexity of the simple cell is completely devastating to atheists. Most atheists will not admit this, but deep inside they know this to be true. I'm an atheist and I am not devastated. Can you accept that? I'm just not at all devastated. Nor am I troubled or even disquieted. So you can forget that line of discussion can't you? Furthermore, the lack of transitional fossils is fatal for theistic evolutionists. Nope. TE's are insultinly dishonest when they insist that there are many intermediate fossils. If the fossils were there, they would be craming them down our throats. But, they are not there. I wonder if you know what a transitional fossil would look like? Can you tell us? Even Darwin, who believed that the simple cell was made of jelly, understood that the lack of transitional fossils would relegate his theory to fantasy. Well that's basically wrong, even if we had no transitional fossils - and of course, we've got plenty (tho' in fact all fossils are transitional) -the ToE would still stand. God creates by design, not by chance. God spoke the plants and animals into existence. He created Adam and Eve with His own hands. TE's are not helping God's cause by substituting lies for His truth. How old is the earth candle?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Candle3 Member Posts: 981 Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Paulk, if you Google Douglas Axe, you will find that he
gives the odds of many random events. What I touched on was just tip of the iceberg. I never associated time with distance. I simply quoted the odds of a random event happening. The other was given in the the number of years. And you hit the nail on the head. 13 billion years,according to Axe and Gauger, is not likely to be enough time. You call me irrational because I do not believe thatcells are not made of jelly. It sounds as though you agree with Darwin concerningthe cell. There is no need for anyone to be upset with me simplybecause I can see through the evolution crap.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18082 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: Which does not mean that those probabilities are either correct or relevant.
quote: You said:
… even if the universe is 13 billion light years old
And I correctly pointed out that a light year is a measure of distance. I note also that you provide no reference for the claim that you attributed to Gauger and Axe, so I can only suppose that you did make it up.
quote: No, I call you irrational because you believe obvious nonsense and spout stupid lies, like the above.
quote: If you could see through crap you wouldn’t spew so much of it. Ron Wyatt, Anglo-Israelitism and the rest.
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Candle3 Member Posts: 981 Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Paulk, what does Ron Wyatt have to do with this?
He was one of the sources I used for the route of theExodus, but nothing else. If memory serves me correctly, you stated that theIsraelites crossed the Sea of Reeds, instead of the Red Sea. The Bible states that the water where they crossed waswaters of the great deep. Furthermore, the separated water formed great walls ofwater on both sides of the Israelites. Isn't it highly irrational, even delusional, to classify themarshlands of the Sea of Reeds as " the great deep"? Even when parted the wall of water at the Sea of Reedswould only reach three or four feet in height. In James 1:1, the Apostle James states that the twelveTribes of Israel were scattered abroad (Diaspora). To distribute in foreign lands. In Deuteronomy 33 and Genesis 48 & 49, the twelveTribes are spoken of as separate and unique nations. Both their blessings in Deuteronomy and their last daysprophecies in Genesis are not referring to the twelve Tribes constituting just one single small nation. It is ludicrous for one to even suggest this, much less totry and defend it. Ephraim was to become a company/multitude of nations.Ephraim's prophecies alone defies logic that the small land area called Samaria could fulfill all that applies to Ephraim in the last days. Moreover, Manasseh was to become a single great nation. If Samaria were that single great nation, the other eleventribes could not be counted as being in that nation. Or else, what applies to one tribe would apply to themall. It has been the modern nation of Israel (both GB & the U.S.)that has spread the words of God and His Holy Bible to the world. God does not use Gentiles to spread Him and His wordto the rest of the world. The Holy Bible is a Book about God and Israel. The onlymention of other nations is when they come into contact with Israel.
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PaulK Member Posts: 18082 Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
quote: You fell for his crap, that’s what. I said that, can’t you read?
quote: Well I don’t think that his misunderstanding of satellite data really makes him a reliable source for that. And that’s where he got the idea of the crossing at Nuweiba - his imaginary “land bridge”.
quote: If it happened at all, it makes more sense that it happened there.The terrain would actually be passable to chariots for one thing. quote: Not in Exodus 14.
quote: Exodus 14 doesn’t say it was that great. Ten feet would be fine.
quote: I agree. Obviously the prophecy is a complete und utter failure.
quote: They aren’t the “modern nation of Israel”. That’s just you spouting silly Anglo-Israelite crap again. (And I think that Rome had an awful lot to do with spreading Christianity - after Constantine)
quote: I don’t think that the Bible agrees. The author of Luke and Acts was a gentile. Acts describes the conversion of large numbers of gentiles? Do you think that they did nothing to spread Christianity further?
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Candle3 Member Posts: 981 Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Tangle, you ask if I would know what a transitional fossils
would look like. I am 100% certain that no one does. There are none. You know that there are none. I know that there are none.I'm just honest enough to admit this. I do not know how old the earth is. My understanding from Genesis, and elsewhere, is thatthe creation week was a renewing of the earth, which had been devastated by Lucifer's rebellion. Even the weakest of the angels (fallen and faithful) wouldpossess more power than earth's strongest hurricane. Many of the planets and moons in our solar system (thereis no reason to believe the war wasn't universal) still carry the scars of that war. However, man and animals have only existed for roughly6000 years. Interestingly, God is allowing humanity 6000 years oflife under Satan's rule. During this time humanity will have tried every form ofgovernment that can be devised. We will fail miserably. We will fail so badly that if Christ does not intervene,which He promises that He will do, all life would be completely destroyed. Matthew 24. God wanted Adam and Eve to listen to Him. He aloneknow the way to true peace and happiness. They chose to trust in themselves. God is giving humanity the time and opportunity to findthis out for ourselves (that without Him and His ways of "give" instead of Satan's way of "get" that complete peace and love for each other will never be realized). God will then show humanity His way, with Christ hereto lead us. He did not give up on the earth. He will install HisKingdom on this earth. Via this Kingdom all humans who have ever lived willbe resurrected and shown God's ways. There are exceptions though. But, the vast majority will fully embrace our loving Savior. Those who do will become the very sons of God. AsHis sons and daughters we will then become the family of God. Ourselves God Beings, with far greater power than Satan ever possessed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9663 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
candle2 writes: I am 100% certain that no one does. There are none (transitional fossils) All life is transitional - you are not the same as your parents and your children are not the same as you. When we talk about transitional fossils though we mean those fossils that have traits common to different groups of organisms; their ancestors and their descendants. Classically we have transitional fossils between ancestral dinosaurs and modern-day birds. There's a whole list of examples here: Transitional fossil - Wikipedia
I do not know how old the earth is. Science does. It's 4.5 billion years old.
However, man and animals have only existed for roughly 6000 years. Yes, well, there's little point continuing discussions on stuff like transitional fossils if you're stuck believing that life has only been around for 6,000 years. You are aware of the enormous amount of evidence supporting this I suppose?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Candle3 Member Posts: 981 Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Tangle, No one knows how old the universe is.
It is impossible for humans to date the age of the earth. Any and all dating methods are not only flawed, buthighly flawed. And, they are manipulated to fit the paradigm of theadministrator. An offspring inherits traits from both parents. He cannotbe anything other than what he inherits from them. This is not evolution. Dr. Carl Werner, in his book "Living Fossils" relates thatit is quite common for fossil researchers to unearth modern bird fossils among dinosaur bones. Museums do not display them. It doesn't line up withtheir agenda. To withhold this information from the public is tosuppress the truth, and it is dishonest. Ducks, loons, flamingos, parrots, and fossils of manyother modern day bird fossils are found alongside, and even below, dino bones. Dr. Werner is not the only scientist stressing this.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9489 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: |
Stop asserting. If you are going to make a claim present the evidence. What are the "flaws" in dating methods?
Edited by Theodoric, . Edited by Theodoric, . What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9663 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
candle2 writes: Tangle, No one knows how old the universe is. We KNOW - from multiple sources of evidence - that the Earth is £4.5bn years old. We KNOW for absolute certainty that 6,000 years is utterly ludicrous.
And, they are manipulated to fit the paradigm of the administrator. The Administrator? Fascinating; who is the Administrator?
Dr. Carl Werner Dr Carl Werner is a religious nut job, a chiropractor apparently. Why are you listening to unqualified crackpots like this instead of the entire scientific community?
Dr. Werner is not the only scientist stressing this. What? There are more unqualified religious fanatics that think that the earth is 6,000 years old. What a surprise. Is it also flat?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9663 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.6
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candle2 writes: Tangle, No one knows how old the universe is. Here are a few of the evidences for old earth. Radiometric datingLunar samples Fossil record Ice cores Tree rings Sedimentary rock layers Isotopic ratios in meteorites Seafloor spreading Coral reefs Impact craters: Impact craters on Earth Geochronology Stellar evolution Varves Stellar nucleosynthesis Paleomagnetism Cosmogenic nuclides Continental drift and plate tectonics Fossilized stromatolites Coral reef growth rates Ice sheet layering Radiohalos Astronomical observations Geothermal gradients Geologic erosion and weathering It's not an exclusive list but it's pretty much all of science a stake here. You're basically declaring that great chunks of physics, geology, biology, archaeology, chemistry, palaeontology, astronomy and god knows what all are wrong and that your personal interpretation of a the anonymous mythology of a bronze age tribe is right.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6250 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Sorry for the delay, but I've been occupied with many things. I'm also splitting up my reply.
Yet again you demonstrate your ignorance of evolution. Either that or you are deliberately lying. Since you are a creationist, it's hard to tell which it is. It's most likely both. The basic question that you never address remains: What are you talking about? In the four decades I've been discussing "creation science", I have yet to encounter a creationist who will answer that question. Indeed, it causes most creationists to flee in terror of it. Why do you feel that you must oppose evolution? Do you think that evolution somehow conflicts with creation? Why and how? What do you think that evolution is? Or how it works? Everything you post about "evolution" demonstrates that your misunderstanding is immense. Every time you make any statement about "evolution", you're talking about something completely different from evolution. It puts you into the position of not even being wrong; id est (ie, "ie"), your statements cannot even qualify as being wrong because they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion. You are not talking about the subject.
So just what the hell are you talking about?
And with all these degrees you cannot figure out that the beliefs of Darwin are diametrically opposed to that of God and creation. What are you talking about? Whatever would the personal beliefs of Charles Darwin have to do with anything, let alone "God and creation"? You are not making any sense. If you are trying to say that evolution is "diametrically opposed" to "God and creation", then that is even more ridiculously false. Evolution is what happens naturally when life does what life does. Evolution exists because life exists. As long as life exists, it evolves. Note that evolution is not equivalent with change, even though change is also involved, but is also responsible for stasis. Because of drift, selection is needed to keep a species constant. We see the same thing in a ship at station-keeping: in order to maintain the same position, the ship must use its engines or thrusters to counter the effects of drift. We also see the same thing in any negative-feedback control loop, such as a voltage regulator: maintaining a constant output voltage requires active and constant monitoring and control, otherwise any change in input voltage or the load would change the output voltage. Maintaining zero change is not nothing. Also, evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with how life began, nor does how life began have anything whatsoever to do with evolution. Regardless of how life began, whether through natural processes or supernatural means, as soon as life came into existence and started doing what life does (ie, survive, reproduce, rinse and repeat ad infinitum) then evolution started happening.
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6250 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
There is only two ways for life to begin. It is either by blind luck, or it is by creation. YASCFD ("Yet Another Stupid Creationist False Dichotomy"), just like the stupid, false, and deliberately-designed-to-deceive Two Model Approach that is the foundation for that deliberately crafted deception, "creation science." From that link:
quote: Creationists through their "creation science" and Two Model Approach deliberately use false dichotomies in order to deceive, as you have done here. You see, you left out the other ways for life to have begun, like natural processes, which are not "blind luck":
When water is formed by the burning of hydrogen and oxygen, is that "blind luck"? Hell no! When particles in water settle out with the larger heavier particles on the bottom of the sediment and the finer particles on top, is that "blind luck"? Hell no! When any chemical reaction or physical process occurs, is that "blind luck"? Hell no! You left out the third way for life to have begun. And the fourth way, the fifth way, etc up to and including the n'th way. By excluding all those other ways from consideration, you chose to try to deceive us. Before you try to claim a broad interpretation for "creation", please consult your dogma, the Two Model Approach (TMA), whose "creation model" is explicitly restricted to a YEC interpretation. Since the TMA divides origins into "two mutually exclusive models", it consigns to its "atheistic" "evolution model" all explanations that are not part of YEC, including (according to Dr. Henry Morris) "much of the world's religions, ancient and modern". That makes most of the supernatural explanations "atheistic evolution", about 288,000 in number, along with non-YEC Christian teachings. Congrats, you have declared the vast majority of Christians to be atheists, but then what else could we expect from a "true Christian". Obviously, your Two Model Approach and the rest of your false dichotomies are nothing but a crock of BS. Now, there is such a thing as a true dichotomy, but all the possible options must be presented and be testable so that all can be eliminated except for one. Just remember that for that one remaining option to be true through this method, absolutely ALL the possible options must be known. Your "blind luck/creation" options list fails because there are so many other options possible -- I only had to give a third one to prove that. Still, the most common uses (eg, math's Proof by contradiction) is to prove something by trying to prove its exact opposite, thus by finding that the exact opposite is false you prove the proposed thing to be true. But they must be exact opposites with no possibility of a third outcome. The best correction I can think of for your false dichotomy would be "natural vs supernatural", such that you could try to argue for the origin of life being either through natural or supernatural means. However, even there we can see at least one more option, that is was through a combination of natural and supernatural processes. And even if we find that life originated purely through natural processes, an actual believer in Creation (unlike you fake believers) would recognized that their Creator would have created those natural processes. Thus even abiogenesis through natural processes would not disprove that Creator -- indeed, science has nothing to say on the matter and most certainly does not try to "disprove God", rather just tries to learn how everything in the universe works.
Or do you believe that if natural processes are found to have done it, then that disproves your god? Seriously, do you really think that Nature disproves God? That belief comes right out of God of the Gaps thinking.
You mention that Darwin has contributed much to the scientific community. No, he has not. A belief in evolution contributes nothingto science. What the hell is "a belief in evolution" supposed to have to do with anything? Or even mean? You're talking total nonsense! OTOH, an understanding of evolution does indeed contribute much to science. Indeed, except through an understanding of evolution, all the disparate little facts, factoids, and observations in biology make no sense. I've related Dr. Eugenie Scott's story of biology seniors with no training in evolution taking her physical anthropology class which, unlike their biology classes, did teach about evolution and she would watch as one by one they would suddenly start to understand what their biology classes had tried to teach them. Darwin has indeed contributed much to the scientific community. You should try to learn something about it.
Darwinianism is the evolutionary science (it isn't really a science) of the gaps. What the hell is that supposed to be? Do you even know, or are you just mindlessly repeating a bit of creationist nonsense that you thought sounded cute? Since none of your creationists will tell us what it's supposed to be (so what else is new?), I have to offer what I think it might be. If you wish to excoriate me for guess wrong, then you must give us the correct definition. It appears to be an attempt at creating a false equivalence with your practice of "God of the Gaps". In "God of the Gaps", you use gaps in human knowledge as "proof" of "God"; basically, "goddidit" becomes an excuse for your ignorance. Resorting to "goddidit" not only puts an end to any and all further attempts to solve that mystery (and hence perpetuating your ignorance) but it also gives you justification for attacking anyone who does continue to try to solve that mystery on the grounds that "You're trying to disprove God!" For example, in J. Richard Wakefield's article about his research into Robert Gentry's radiohalos in "Genesis rock" (actually in an igneous intrusion within metamorphic rock, so far from "Genesis rock"; turned out that Gentry didn't know what he was looking at), "Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" (Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32), Wakefield concluded with:
quote: So creationists' "Science of the Gaps" appears to be an accusation that scientists confronted with not knowing the answer "stubbornly refuse to accept that God is the obvious answer" and insist that there must be a natural explanation instead of resorting to "goddidit". But what you criticize as a fault is actually a virtue. By continuing to seek an answer, we still have a chance to find the answer, and to decrease our ignorance and learn something new. If instead we were to do as you demand of us and resort to your "God of the Gaps", then we will remain in the perpetual darkness of ignorance. This example is from Sherlock Holmes (The Hound of the Baskervilles):
quote: So just what the hell are you talking about?
... (remember that Darwin is the father of the "jelly-like substance-I get a good laugh out of this) ... I bet that you also laughed all through Titanic at those idiot passengers who took a boat instead of a jet airliner. What did you just say? That jet airliners didn't exist back then? Well, when Darwin had written that (if indeed that was the case) all anyone could see in a cell's cytoplasm was a lack of any distinct features. Staining microscope specimens dates from the late 1800's, decades after Darwin would have written that. So just what is it about that questionable quote that you find so funny? Or are you still nothing but a fucking idiot?
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