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Author Topic:   God caused or uncaused?
mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 241 of 297 (418120)
08-26-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Rob
08-26-2007 11:37 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
What of it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:37 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:51 AM mark24 has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 242 of 297 (418121)
08-26-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Rob
08-26-2007 11:26 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
So what is science testing for if not logical coherence?
Actually, understandability as opposed to logic. It doesn't matter if the correct answer is illogical as long as it is actually correct.
And are they not assuming that logical consistency (though sometimes wrong due to lack of information) is axiomatic and our only tool to shed light on reality?
No, they are not making that assumption. Perhaps, at the very beginnings of science such an assumption might have been made but we have progressed beyond that point.
What Science does have is a high degree of confidence that the real world is Understandable, and that position is supported as opposed to axiomatic.
It is not logical that something can be both a wave and a particle, but somethings are. It is not logical that the chair we count on to support our weight is mostly nothing, but that is the fact.
Much of what we learn is not logical. Many things that are logically correct are also known to be wrong and you have been given numerous examples.
BUT this topic is, in case you missed it, "God caused or uncaused?" and so far, you have not addressed that question.
As pointed out in Message 194 and Message 212 and Message 231, it is a silly, irrelevant and unimportant question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:26 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Taz, posted 08-26-2007 11:46 AM jar has not replied
 Message 247 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:46 AM jar has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 243 of 297 (418122)
08-26-2007 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Rob
08-26-2007 11:36 AM


rob writes:
So logic is proven to exist, because of the physical world. We can compare the two...
Whether logic really exists or not depends on one's opinion. It's a human invention to help us define consistencies within our own thought process.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:36 AM Rob has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 244 of 297 (418123)
08-26-2007 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Taz
08-26-2007 11:39 AM


Taz:
The laws of physics are not proven. Believing or disbelieving in gravity doesn't affect the fact that it's there. Gravity is not physical in the sense that you are thinking. It's physical in the sense that it affects everything, including light.
Evidence for god please.
Reality is bound to affect everything. That's why god is called Reality as per Merriam-Websters.
Evidence for God?
"I Am the light f the world"
Your doing fine on your own...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Taz, posted 08-26-2007 11:39 AM Taz has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 245 of 297 (418124)
08-26-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Rob
08-26-2007 11:34 AM


Rob writes:
You deny the laws of physics even though they are proven?
They're not "proven", of course. They're just the best description we have of the physical world. The physical world would still operate the same as it does even if we didn't describe it with "laws".
So logic is proven to exist, because of the physical world.
No. Logic doesn't "exist". Like the physical "laws", it's just a mental construct. It needs to be coherent with physical observations in order to have value.
Which is why logic has no bearing on the topic. God is not constrained by mental constructs.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:34 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 246 of 297 (418125)
08-26-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
08-26-2007 11:41 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
jar writes:
Much of what we learn is not logical. Many things that are logically correct are also known to be wrong and you have been given numerous examples.
I tend to see logic as a tool for us to be consistent with ourselves and not as a mean to define the physical world. To use logic to define the physical world is like trying to detect cancer with a speed radar gun.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:41 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:47 AM Taz has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 247 of 297 (418126)
08-26-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
08-26-2007 11:41 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
Rob: So what is science testing for if not logical coherence?
jar: Actually, understandability as opposed to logic. It doesn't matter if the correct answer is illogical as long as it is actually correct.
Can things illogical be understood? Can something illogical be correct? Can jabberwocky make sense?
jar:
It is not logical that something can be both a wave and a particle, but somethings are.
Like God being both God (spirit) and man (flesh) and the light of the world (logic)?
Everything that we know is logical. We couldn't know it if it wasn't. Knowing depends upon it.
Just because we cannot comprehend how the wave particle duality is solved doesn't mean that it isn't logical.
I have faith that it is. 'God doesn't play dice'.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:57 AM Rob has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 248 of 297 (418127)
08-26-2007 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Taz
08-26-2007 11:46 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
Taz:
I tend to see logic as a tool for us to be consistent with ourselves and not as a mean to define the physical world. To use logic to define the physical world is like trying to detect cancer with a speed radar gun.
I believe that you believe that...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Taz, posted 08-26-2007 11:46 AM Taz has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 249 of 297 (418128)
08-26-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by mark24
08-26-2007 11:41 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Logic ie. God ie. reality ie. exists!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:41 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by mark24, posted 08-26-2007 11:53 AM Rob has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5194 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 250 of 297 (418129)
08-26-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Rob
08-26-2007 11:51 AM


Re: Reality (God) is logical. And logic is uncaused
Rob,
Logic ie. God ie. reality ie. exists!
That logic = god is a baseless assertion. That god = reality is the same.
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:51 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 12:02 PM mark24 has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 251 of 297 (418130)
08-26-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
08-26-2007 11:44 AM


Ringo:
No. Logic doesn't "exist". Like the physical "laws", it's just a mental construct
So our mental constructs do not exist as non-material entities thereby proving that the non-material dimension exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by ringo, posted 08-26-2007 12:07 PM Rob has replied

SurSteven
Junior Member (Idle past 6058 days)
Posts: 1
From: heartland of america...usa
Joined: 08-20-2007


Message 252 of 297 (418131)
08-26-2007 11:56 AM


life seems to be finite and infinite...in a constant state of
creation and re-creation...grasping the concept of infinity has
always been mind boggling for me...although, as a twelve year old,
i remember telling my girlfriend of the time to imagine our universe
as a drop of water coming out of someones faucet, in a universe, on
a much larger scale...she thought it was cool and my friends thought
I was crazy! i am inclined to favor rob's statement in his first
message.......pleasure to meet everyone!.......steve
ps i am not a very good student of debate, so please take it
easy on me.......smilin'

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:58 AM SurSteven has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 253 of 297 (418132)
08-26-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Rob
08-26-2007 11:46 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
Can things illogical be understood? Can something illogical be correct? Can jabberwocky make sense?
Certainly illogical things can be understood and they can also be correct. You have been given many such examples. Can Jabberwocky makes sense? No, by definition.
jar said:
It is not logical that something can be both a wave and a particle, but somethings are.
to which Rob replied:
quote:
Like God being both God and man and the light of the world?
Once again, irrelevant, unimportant and unsupported.
Yet again you are trying to misdirect the audience so they don't see you palm the pea.
The fact that something can be both a wave and a particle is based on observation. It is not logical or even reasonable with the knowledge we currently hold, but it is reality.
So far though, there has been no evidence presented that God even exists. The topic though, in case you missed it, is "God caused or uncaused?" and as pointed out in Message 194, Message 212, Message 231 and Message 242 it is irrelevant, unimportant and inderterminate.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 11:46 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Rob, posted 08-26-2007 12:01 PM jar has replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 254 of 297 (418133)
08-26-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by SurSteven
08-26-2007 11:56 AM


Keep thinking SurSteven, and watch out. Because the admins will get you for not responding with the proper etiquete.
Use the reply button in the lower right hand corner of each message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by SurSteven, posted 08-26-2007 11:56 AM SurSteven has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 255 of 297 (418134)
08-26-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
08-26-2007 11:57 AM


Re: False dichotomy.
You never answered the question jar. You're railroading the thread. using up the post count.
The only one palming the pea is jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 08-26-2007 12:07 PM Rob has not replied

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