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Author Topic:   How close are Christians to their god?
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 31 of 84 (339505)
08-12-2006 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
08-11-2006 1:53 PM


Re: Christian is Christian
jar,
If my memory serves me right, you were one of the individuals in residence when I blundered into a chat room by mistake on my first evening on here. Apologies for my hasty retreat, but I’m not really into chat rooms I’m afraid Anyway; it’s nice to make your acquaintance at last.
What qualification criteria?
If someone says they are a Christian, why would anyone doubt it?
I was basically playing devil’s advocate in response to arachnophilia’s post, which I had misconstrued as it turns out. However, if you read my original post, it doesn’t say ”claim to be Christian’, it says ”believe themselves to be Christian’. I wasn’t suggesting for a second anyone would claim to be Christian when they are not. I was asking about those who believe themselves to be Christian, but whose beliefs appear to place them outside of the basic tenets of what it means to be a Christian - as I understand things, not having any such faith myself.
But studying the discussion on exclusion in the subsequent posts between arachnophilia, robinrohan and Phat, I see there’s a ready acceptance amongst the membership of the differences that exist within the Christian religion and across all the religions.
Lost in my clumsiness was the idea that I was hoping to develop the point, depending on what sort of response I received. Maybe I need to start being a little less obtuse and become a bit more proactive in leading the discussion where I want it to go, rather than just planting the seed and waiting to see what develops. Where I really wanted to discussion to go was along the lines of, ”what can we, or should we infer from differences in belief within the Christian faith, or across the faiths?’
At this point I’ve just realised I’ve not properly introduced myself in the sense that I’ve not really identified my particular standpoint on issues religious or scientific. I’m not sure whether it is expected of new arrivals to do so or not, but it seems to me to be a common courtesy, so I shall rectify that omission now (with apologies for not having done so sooner).
By the age of ten I had arrived at the conclusion that man created god. At that age I had little or no concept of the laws of probability, but as time has passed, a little knowledge of that subject has been acquired. With the passing of the years, and the gaining of both knowledge and experience, I can say that the probability that man created god seems ever more likely to me. I’m not going to be stupid enough to try to assign a value to it, but it can be seen as a process where any fresh evidence strengthens the case for one side of the argument or the other. To date, the evidence for man creating god outweighs the competing point of view by some considerable distance.
Not that I would ever suggest that I might not be mistaken in the way I interpret or weigh the evidence, but the process works for me. I like the idea of degrees of certainty rather than absolutes - certainty being the mother of delusion.
So to tie up the post, where am I going with this idea? Ironically, given that it was ID that brought me to this site, the question might be, if man did create his gods, can we see any evidence for it in the belief process?
The polytheistic early religions were awash with gods, generally based around the movements of the stars. The modern religions each has their own god, and when we get down to examining Christianity for example, we see what appears to be a great diversity in the actual beliefs held. As an outsider looking in, this might almost be seen that groups or individuals are ”tailoring’ their religion to suit their own needs. The question then becomes, if this were the case, would this ”tailoring’ suggest a degree of creative design on behalf of the believer? And if creative design is part of the ongoing process of theism, doesn’t it seem reasonable to suppose it was also the founding father?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 08-11-2006 1:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-12-2006 1:28 PM dogrelata has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 84 (339545)
08-12-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by dogrelata
08-12-2006 8:59 AM


Re: Christian is Christian
But studying the discussion on exclusion in the subsequent posts between arachnophilia, robinrohan and Phat, I see there’s a ready acceptance amongst the membership of the differences that exist within the Christian religion and across all the religions.
Well, as you might expect, some accept more than others. I've been told many a time that I am not a Christian.
Ironically, given that it was ID that brought me to this site, the question might be, if man did create his gods, can we see any evidence for it in the belief process?
I would say Yes and No.
Let me try to explain my position. First, there is a logic construct I would ask you to consider.
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that It does not exist.
If GOD does NOT exist, It does not exist regardless of any evidence that She does exist.
Some folk say I harp on that but it is for a reason. Any entity that created this universe will not be subject to our whims or fancy. I cannot decide which is more awesome, contemplating something that could imagine this unverse or something that could manipulate the forces involved.
So then we move on to the second thing I think important and that again, many folk claim I just keep harping on.
The Map is not the Territory.
You asked
The question then becomes, if this were the case, would this ”tailoring’ suggest a degree of creative design on behalf of the believer? And if creative design is part of the ongoing process of theism, doesn’t it seem reasonable to suppose it was also the founding father?
Religions are not GOD. None of the religions have it right, we are all wrong. What we see in religions, whether Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Jew or Taoist or Buddhist or Satanist or Wiccan is but an attempt to map the territory none of us have ever seen.
There is a reality there. I believe the reality is that there is a GOD. I may well be wrong. Others believe equally strongly that there is no GOD. They too may be wrong. Our beliefs do not determine reality. As my mommy said, "Wish in one hand and spit (my mommy was a proper southern lady) in the other. See which gets full first."
So we are now at the point where all too often the old "consequence of being wrong" gambit is pulled out.
No way, not going there.
I believe the primary function of religion is to teach us how to live our lives, how to best get along with folk, how to take care of the world we live on, how to care for the other critters, how to set goals and priorities and figure out what is important.
If a Christian, as an example, leads a life as described above and there is no GOD, no afterlife, then they had a good life and maybe left things a little better than they found them.
If an Atheist, as an example, leads a life as described above and there is a GOD, an afterlife, then they had a good life and maybe left things a little better than they found them and I am quite sure would be welcomed into heaven.
There is no doubt in my mind that we do create our images of GOD. There is also no doubt in my mind that those images are no more the reality of GOD than a map is the reality of the territory, that a treasure map is the treasure itself.
One last thing. Chat here is as different from most chats as EvC is from other boards. It is often a place where you can grab someone and really get to pick their brain in near real time. We hope you will drop in again one day. Remember, if it doesn't live up to your expectations, you can always change it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dogrelata, posted 08-12-2006 8:59 AM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by dogrelata, posted 08-13-2006 1:51 PM jar has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 33 of 84 (339800)
08-13-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
08-12-2006 1:28 PM


Re: Christian is Christian
jar,
Thanks for your thoughts. Some of them tie in nicely with a couple of ideas I’m exploring at the moment.
The Map is not the Territory.
Agreed. However, given the number and diversity of ”maps’ in existence, I think it’s reasonable to ask if any of them offer a usable representation of the ”territory’ in question. Or even if the ”territory’ exists at all, the ”maps’ being no more than a representation of the hopes and desires of those who drew them.
So we are now at the point where all too often the old "consequence of being wrong" gambit is pulled out.
No way, not going there.
”Gambit’. Nice word, I like it. But sometimes you’ve just got to put your head in the lion’s mouth, to see how sharp its teeth are. After all, there’s rarely any reward to be had where the risk is zero. So what the hell, let’s have a little peek
I assume you’re talking about the proposal that if believers are wrong about their faith, they die and that’s the end of the story. Non-believers, on the other hand, may face dire consequences if they are wrong. Any rational person, therefore, would choose to believe.
Obviously I am familiar with the proposal, but have only ever seen it presented in this form. To me this form seems incomplete or unfinished. That’s because it appears to assume that if god exists he is wholly benevolent (except towards non-believers of course). It appears to exclude the possibility that god may exist as a malevolent being. This possibility would be a lot more problematical for believers were it true, as it becomes unclear what the consequences of their faith might be in those circumstances.
I've been told many a time that I am not a Christian.
Yip, I’ve been told on a number of occasions that I’m a believer. It’s a funny old world we live in

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 08-12-2006 1:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 08-13-2006 2:17 PM dogrelata has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 84 (339810)
08-13-2006 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by dogrelata
08-13-2006 1:51 PM


Re: Christian is Christian
Agreed. However, given the number and diversity of ”maps’ in existence, I think it’s reasonable to ask if any of them offer a usable representation of the ”territory’ in question. Or even if the ”territory’ exists at all, the ”maps’ being no more than a representation of the hopes and desires of those who drew them.
I think those are very reasonable things to ask. Not just to ask once either, but to continue to question throughout your life.
The only way to tell if a map is accurate is to check it against reality. Unfortunately, some of the things in the Territory GOD are not subject to direct testing and so must be infered. My personal method is to compare the practical everyday uses of the map to the territory I live in. Does the Map I use help me navigate the territory I am covering Right Now?
Like a world atlas, there may well be places on the map I have not visited. I have no way of knowing if those parts of the atlas I cannot test against reality are correct except by looking at my experience with those maps in the atlas I have tested. There is a risk there as well as an assumption. I have no way of being assured that the maps not tested are of the same accuracy as those tested and must simply assume they are until tested. I can, of course, also assume that until tested they are not as accurate and to me, that seems an equally valid approach.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by dogrelata, posted 08-13-2006 1:51 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by dogrelata, posted 08-14-2006 1:11 PM jar has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 35 of 84 (339945)
08-14-2006 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dogrelata
08-08-2006 2:17 PM


Welcome to EVC.
My own experience tells me there are almost as many flavours of Christianity as there are Christians. Time spent on these forums does nothing to clarify the situation.
My experience with different Christians, and how they approach their faith differently has shown just how subjective faith can be. But is it really subjective?
"If" there is a God, and an enemy of your soul, then there is a real battle going on. No 2 humans go through the same exact set of circumstance, and are each "attacked" individually. By "attacked" I mean what they go through in life that hinders them from being close to God. All our paths are different, but our destinations are the same. Having gotten more into "religion" the last 2 years, has shown me, the more you seek God, the less the lines are blurred in our subjectiveness, and the more we become like Him. Still we face our battles, and growing pains.
For the most part, there are a few here that do agree mostly on the core belief's of our faith, even though it may not seem like it. I tend to agree with most of the Christians, and what they say, whether I debate with them or not. I am sure people like Phat, jar, and many others will agree that the core of our faith is Loving God, and loving others. How we go about it, may be different.
I’d be very interested in getting some feedback from Christians regarding one very particular aspect of their faith, namely the nature of their own personal relationship with their god.
I feel my relationship with God, is a very realistic one, although people who do not have faith, will not understand it. I have come to realise that everything in my life, the good and the bad, has been a journey that led me to God. He has created me with many gifts, and it is my desire to honor Him with using those gifts towards His purposes. It gives me great satisfaction to be exactly who I am, as He created me, and not something different that some church has changed me into.
I feel my biggest duty/struggle in fulfilling this, is always focusing on him, and leading a life of prayer. Worshipping Him in spirit and truth, by being who I am. Not having preconceived notions about how to go about it, and just keep on learning. Also not being judgemental, or passing judgement, that I wouldn't want passed to me.
My relationship with God, involves the Holy Spirit, and I thank Him for blessing me with it. Coming into contact with the Holy Spirit, has changed everything for me, regarding my faith, and I would not say that my belief in God is just purely faith, and that I can feel Him everyday. Even with this, I can still screw up, and just be my plain ol idiot self.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dogrelata, posted 08-08-2006 2:17 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by robinrohan, posted 08-14-2006 8:34 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 39 by dogrelata, posted 08-14-2006 2:13 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 84 (339950)
08-14-2006 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by riVeRraT
08-14-2006 8:24 AM


Also not being judgemental, or passing judgement, that I wouldn't want passed to me.
I don't see how not being judgmental is even possible. I also don't see why it's automatically so great not to be judgmental. What kind of judgment would you not want "passed to" you"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 08-14-2006 8:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by riVeRraT, posted 08-14-2006 11:56 PM robinrohan has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 37 of 84 (339993)
08-14-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
08-13-2006 2:17 PM


Re: Christian is Christian
jar,
I get the strong feeling from you that given the option of choosing between a world living in perfect harmony, but without any gods, or the world as it is today, overseen by your god and the possibility of salvation, you would pick the former over the latter. I'm probably wrong, if so apologies, but a lot of what you say kind of gives that impression.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 08-13-2006 2:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 08-14-2006 1:35 PM dogrelata has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 84 (339998)
08-14-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by dogrelata
08-14-2006 1:11 PM


Re: Christian is Christian
Well, I believe you are wrong, but then I was wrong once myself.
First, I don't forsee a state of perfect harmony either here or in the afterlife as either likely or even desireable. In fact that sounds very, very boring to me, perfectly hellish in fact.
But one thing I feel I need to comment on is:
...overseen by your god and the possibility of salvation,...
Please remember that I am at best no more than a mapmaker, more likely only a map reader. None of us will know the reality of GOD while we live, at least it is very unlikely we will do so. But right now, all we can deal with is this life, this world, this universe. It seems to me that our task is to try to do the best within the bounds of what we have.
Unlike many Christians, I can't say I'm saved. I hope so, but really won't know until after I die, and then only if there is a GOD, and there is an afterlife. And if either of those turns out to be true I have no idea of whether or not GOD and the afterlife will turn out to be anything I imagined.
I hope there is an afterlife, there is still so very much I want to know and this lifetime will not be anywhere near long enough to learn it all.
The other thing I'd like to expand on is "perfect harmony". I find that an almost frightening idea. Difference, confrontation, disagreement all drive learning, drive growth, drive art, drive love, drive joy and wonder. Sure I wish we could find alternatives to war as a means of settling disputes, but lets not get to the point where there are no differences.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by dogrelata, posted 08-14-2006 1:11 PM dogrelata has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by dogrelata, posted 08-15-2006 1:15 PM jar has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 39 of 84 (340003)
08-14-2006 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by riVeRraT
08-14-2006 8:24 AM


riVerRaT,
Thanks, it’s nice to ”meet’ you.
the more you seek God, the less the lines are blurred in our subjectiveness, and the more we become like Him
This raises a number of issues, but I’m determined not to try to run before I can walk around here, so I’ll settle for asking you to clarify the term, ”the more you seek God’, because it sounds like you might be edging perilously close to the ”n’ word - need. When I see need in connection with faith I see ”necessity is the mother of invention’, I see first cause.
To expand on that a little, I offer the following analogy. Imagine an investigation into whether god created man, or man god. Even Christians admit that they can’t really explain why god dunnit, so to speak - so they’re light on motive. If ”need’ for a god can be identified within the human race, a strong motive emerges. Add to that the fact that the monotheistic gods worshipped today wouldn’t have been man’s first attempt at god creation, and the circumstantial case starts to build. None of which proves a thing, but it’s nice to explore the possibilities.
I feel my relationship with God, is a very realistic one, although people who do not have faith, will not understand it.
Granted. However, and I don’t wish to appear flippant here, the very same sentiment could be expressed by somebody believing themselves to be Napoleon reincarnate. Any time we wander into the realm of feelings it’s tough, because so many feelings emanate from within ourselves and we spend half our lives trying to rationalize them.
Which seems like a good place to sign off for the evening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 08-14-2006 8:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by riVeRraT, posted 08-15-2006 12:36 AM dogrelata has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 40 of 84 (340127)
08-14-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by robinrohan
08-14-2006 8:34 AM


Are you confusing judging with trying to figure someone out for your own self? Or judging with facts?
Passing judgment would be like me telling jar that you have stinky breath because you don't take care of yourself, when I really don't know why you have stinky breath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by robinrohan, posted 08-14-2006 8:34 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 12:04 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 84 (340128)
08-15-2006 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by riVeRraT
08-14-2006 11:56 PM


Passing judgment would be like me telling jar that you have stinky breath because you don't take care of yourself, when I really don't know why you have stinky breath.
If Jar has stinky breath, you have the right to judge that. However, it would be imprudent to tell him that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by riVeRraT, posted 08-14-2006 11:56 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by riVeRraT, posted 08-15-2006 12:40 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 44 by riVeRraT, posted 08-15-2006 12:44 AM robinrohan has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 42 of 84 (340134)
08-15-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by dogrelata
08-14-2006 2:13 PM


I’ll settle for asking you to clarify the term, ”the more you seek God’, because it sounds like you might be edging perilously close to the ”n’ word - need.
"If" God exists, and He created us, and what Jesus taught is true, then we all have God's laws written on our minds and hearts. However these laws get blurred by the world, and all that it is. Whether this is training to be with God, or whatever, we are built with a desire to know God. Even yourself, you are asking questions, because you seek truth.
The one common thing I find with everyone here in this forum is that we all seek the truth. Jesus tried to teach us about the truth. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. I read about it for years, and never really understood it until I felt it.
Do a search on all the bible verses with the word truth in it, and try to understand what is meant by what was written.
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
What does He mean, the truth?
Would you agree we all seek the truth?
Is that a necessity? If not, then why do we all seek it?
To expand on that a little, I offer the following analogy. Imagine an investigation into whether god created man, or man god. Even Christians admit that they can’t really explain why god dunnit, so to speak - so they’re light on motive.
I have heard this discussion before. I can share with you two perspectives I currently believe on this.
First, is that, if we were created in His image, then I can totally understand why He would create us, and many more things. I share the same joy in making stuff from His creation.
Second is (and here is where many people would call me crazy, including myself about a few years back) that one day, my Pastor said that God has a name for all of us, and if we wanted to know what that name was, we should pray together and find out. I was curious, so I stood and prayed. I was saying "Lord?" as if to call out to Him, over and over in my head. All I kept hearing was an echo back. Now we all tend to put God in a box. I have always imagined God as being infinite, and to big for my head to box Him, so I never bothered to try to understand Him too much. But there was that echo, I must have repeated it 25 times. Finally I said, I must be a goof ball, and I am hearing my own voice echoing inside my empty head. All of a sudden a thought said, thats it, your going to give up? I was like, well I don't hear my name, so I guess I will give up for now. Then it dawned on me that it was the Lord, calling me lord. That He is Lord of lords, and we are His buddies, and He created us to walk with Him, and share the joy of eternal life. All of a sudden that huge infinate box that I had God in, got really small, and I felt God put His arm around me, just like He will put His arm around you, and walk with us.
If you think this all sounds kooky, then I understand, but it is what happened, and I am not ashamed of it. If it is God, and not me cracking up, then I can't go wrong by sharing it, even if people would make fun of it.
Any time we wander into the realm of feelings it’s tough, because so many feelings emanate from within ourselves and we spend half our lives trying to rationalize them.
Do they emanate from within our selves? Even the person who thinks he is napoleon dynomite?
I am sure the majority of thoughts emanate from our minds. I have found that when trying to communicate with God, the first thought is usually Him, not me. After the first thought, it will be me trying to rationalize away the first thought. I know it's Him now, because I am doing things completely different now. So, I am either one step away from the funny farm, or I feel God. I'll take the second guess, and stay in a state of denial, until the day I die.
You know exactly what I am talking about. You have lied on your bed staring at the light bulb in the ceiling and wondering why, and you start a conversation in your head. It is then, that you desire to communicate with God. When you start asking all the why questions. Then you stop, because you start to feel uncomfortable, and don't want to fell like a crazy person.
I think that if you start praying once and a while, and asking God to reveal the relavent things your life, that will lead you to Him, He will answer, and then you can be nutz like me Or just yourself, tweaked a little.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by dogrelata, posted 08-14-2006 2:13 PM dogrelata has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 43 of 84 (340135)
08-15-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by robinrohan
08-15-2006 12:04 AM


I didn't say jar has stinky breath, I said I was telling jar, that YOU had stinky breath, and the reason why.
It may be a fact indeed that you have stinky breath, but I made up the reason why, because I judged you, then passed it along, by sharing it with jar.
When the actual truth might be, that you were raised wrong, or can't afford good dental care, and you are ashamed of it, and I should be sensitive to your stinky breath, or perhaps reach into my pocket, and send you to the dentist on me, because thats what people do who care about other people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 12:04 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by dogrelata, posted 08-15-2006 2:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 44 of 84 (340136)
08-15-2006 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by robinrohan
08-15-2006 12:04 AM


If Jar has stinky breath, you have the right to judge that. However, it would be imprudent to tell him that.
I will address this staement, even though you missed my point, and how it was directed.
First off, if jar had stinky breath, it's a fact, and I am not judging it.
Second off, only a friend would try to help him correct it, and do it in a way as not to insult him, but build a relationship with him.
If I had a booger hanging from my nose, would you tell me, or just let it hang there, and then go to your friends later and say, hey you know that guy Anthony, he had a booger hanging from his nose, and it was gross?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 12:04 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by robinrohan, posted 08-15-2006 1:25 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
dogrelata
Member (Idle past 5312 days)
Posts: 201
From: Scotland
Joined: 08-04-2006


Message 45 of 84 (340298)
08-15-2006 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
08-14-2006 1:35 PM


Re: Christian is Christian
jar,
As I say, apologies for calling it wrong. But at least it’s added some fresh impetus to the exchange, which appeared to be reaching a natural conclusion.
I find your brand of Christianity refreshing. I’m fascinated to hear you say you’ve hitched a ride on a train, destination unknown. Good luck on the journey.
Actually, maybe the exchange has reached its natural conclusion, but I can’t let it go without asking one last question. Have you ever had personal experience of the entity common known as Satan? If you have, I guess what really interests me here is how it manifested itself? How did you recognise it? And if you believe you haven’t, how do you know you haven’t?
Which is maybe a sneaky way of asking, how sure are you that your god isn’t the malevolent entity suggested by me in an earlier post?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 08-14-2006 1:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 08-15-2006 1:42 PM dogrelata has replied

  
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