An atheist who is not so keen on God

Well, I see you dropped the atheist-evo issue. Had you bothered to read the thread it would have never come up in the first place.Now, if you will reread the thread I think you'll find the following.The initial question was "Can an atheist love GOD".Brian said No. I said yes. I was speaking from my personal point of view, which happens to be Christianity.I asked a number of questions, one of which was (and I'm paraphrasing so bear with me), is there any difference in value between an act of kindness or courtesy when performed by a Christian or an Atheist when the only reason for performing the act was that it was the right thing to do?So let me ask you, that same question. Do they have different values?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes. There is. Do I need to prove it?
And if I don't or can't prove it, does that mean that you have joined our circle for the moment? Oops...there I go quoting scripture again! Looks like I can't prove it.
(sorry I'm being ornery.)This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-21-2005 07:21 AM

I'm still not sure that I understand what you're saying there.If someone lets you have a parking space, does the act have more value if done by a Christian?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well to answer this question from my perspective, I would say no. Because God values a Christian and an Atheist the same.
Thanks for pointing out my prior logic and giving me a chance to rethink my position. Perhaps Rrhain is asking us if we can't talk about love and compassion without talking about Jesus. It appears that you are better at making a parable out of scriptural truth than I am.
I certainly value Rrhain the same as I value young Chris(as an example) except that Chris Porcelain agrees with me and Rrhain usually does not. Human nature and emotional gratification seeks people who comfort and shuns people who irritate. Your parable is showing us that no such contrast has to be followed. Am I right?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-21-2005 07:31 AM

Fine. But one point I'd like to make. I am speaking of the value of the action. I think this may also be part of the miscommunication between Rrhain and myself. I am not talking about the value GOD might place on the individual but rather the action itself.I'm old and sometimes it's difficult for me to make my thoughts clear to others.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh come on! You are not THAT old!

Well, in the scenario that Brian and I had concocted, an Atheist who believed in the scientific method dies and comes face to face with GOD. The question I asked was whether or not, when actually presented with irrefutable evidence, the actual presence of GOD, the Atheist would abandon the scientific method or accept the evidence.Both Brian and I agreed that the likely outcome would be that the Atheist would accept the evidence.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I found a good article which addresses some of the arguments, assertions, and ideologies which we have talked of thus far...it is at Probe Ministries but the logic is fair and balanced, IMHO.
A Conversation with an AtheistWhat I like about this article is that the article includes the personality of the issue...the relationship between seekers.

It appears you added some to your post while I was responding so let me try to address the new material. I don't know. I think I'm still failing at getting my point across to Rrhain. Hopefully we'll work that out. That is certainly likely. But I think that's still slightly OT to what I'm trying (not too effectively) to say.My point is to look at actions from GOD's perspective. I cannot imagine that GOD, as I see him, would say that an act of kindness when done by an Atheist has less value than one done by a believer. In addition, I believe that that same GOD would say that the act of kindness of the Atheist has GREATER value than the same act performed by a believer who committed the act to gain acceptance from GOD. I believe that GOD wants people to do right because it IS the right thing to do. If it is done for reward then the point, the value of the act is diminished.Is that any clearer?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that I understand where you are coming from. Is it not kinda like the Widow with the two mites? For a believer to give of themselves can be justified by them as an extension of the imparted abundance of God. For an atheist, however, giving simply for the action of doing good is in effect giving it all they have!
right?

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My point is to look at actions from GOD's perspective. I cannot imagine that GOD, as I see him, would say that an act of kindness when done by an Atheist has less value than one done by a believer.

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At this point, although Jar and I do hold differnet ideas on Christianity, I completely agree. My acts as a Christian hold no greater value to God then the acts of an Atheist. This is precisely why an acts based salvation cannot work among other reasons.

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In addition, I believe that that same GOD would say that the act of kindness of the Atheist has GREATER value than the same act performed by a believer who committed the act to gain acceptance from GOD. I believe that GOD wants people to do right because it IS the right thing to do. If it is done for reward then the point, the value of the act is diminished.

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I agree to some extent. I do believe God wants us to do what is right for right's sake, and then proceed to give Him glory for it. An act done purely for the reward is a sin in my eyes. I constantly question my motives for doing something to make sure that I'm doing it for His glory, not for what I might receive from it.I mentioned earlier this is why an acts based salvation cannot work. There is no amount of acts I could do to erase my sin. And if there was, well then the question becomes how much is enough- and there is no qualification in the Bible at all for this.In my eyes, salvation comes purely from believing that God died on the cross for my sins and rose again the third day. It is the only thing that can wash away sin in God's eyes, otherwise what did Christ die for?As to the actual direct topic of this thread, I must agree with Brian. An atheist can do good works. But I don't see that as loving God in any way. An atheist denies God. How can you in any way love something you deny?Jar you also made an excellent point earlier in this thread. The greatest threat to Christianity is Christians. I agree completely. We are our greatest downfall, myself included. With that I would like to apologize, if I have at all attacked anyone on this board. I hope I have merely presented my own case, but I know that I get very intense during debates and I may have said something to have offended someone, and for that I apologize.

Hi phat,I keep missing messages from you because they are mixed in with others LOL.Anyway: God is ineffable I don't have issues with God, I have issues with people who think they have to tell others how to live their lives based on what they think a fantasy being said. I have issues with people who blatantly argue against the biblical text. I have issues with people who say it is just to wipe out every man, woman, and child in Jericho because God said to do it, then say something such as a hindu woman killing herself when her husband dies is barbaric, I have issues with double standards. He is a fictional character in a collection of ancient texts. Yes indeed, fro around 20 years He did. I am saying that I cannot love God because I am an atheist and dont believe in him, so it isn't possible in my opinion.Let be be straight here, I do not hate God or anyone or anything else (well maybe spiders), I don't think about God as a possible reality at all, I only think of Him as a character in a book. I am cheerful most of the time,i did lose it a couple of weeks ago, but apart from that. You should take my digs at God with a pinch of salt, it is just a device. It can be if I let it run away with me. Not at all, I have always got along very well with them all.You see, when I am in seminars I am a different person altogether from the one in here. I take it very seriosly and act as professionally as possible. At the end of each course all the students have to fill out an evaluation of the seminars and the percentage of students wo gave me full marks in each category is in the high 90's.I am totally objective in seminars, I wouldn't let my personal belief interfere with my work, and I really don't think that any of my students know that I am an atheist, I am sure some would be very surprised to find out.But I am doing a job, I am interested in learning more about the Hebrew Bible and seminars always bring up new information. The trainee ministers are especially inquisitive and we have had some excellent seminars, some have even mentioned my seminars to the head of dept as being something they really enjoyed about uni.I am extremely pleased to be involved in these seminars, it's not just any old uni you know. You probably don't know the half of it, he is one of life's true gentlemen.Brian.

Very good. I had never thought of it in those terms but I do believe your right.Thank You.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that the only place we might disagree is that I doubt very much if GOD really cares if anyone gives him the credit or not. But that would likely be the subject of some other thread. It is certainly not the same as one committed simply because it's the right thing to do.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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I think that the only place we might disagree is that I doubt very much if GOD really cares if anyone gives him the credit or not. But that would likely be the subject of some other thread

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Then in your opinion, why did Christ have to die?