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Author Topic:   An atheist who is not so keen on God
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 31 of 100 (187087)
02-20-2005 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
02-20-2005 8:47 PM


Typical Theist-Creo Bull
Oh, by the way:
When was it determined that I was an atheist?
Just because I don't believe in your god doesn't mean I don't believe in any god. I've been very careful to keep my personal opinions about the existence of god out of this group precisely because I don't want you and those like you to assume anything about me simply because of a position I take. How nice to know that there are still people who can't handle criticism of their claims without demonizing the person making the criticism.
And since when did agreeing with evolution make on an atheist? Are you calling the pope an atheist?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 8:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 9:10 PM Rrhain has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 100 (187089)
02-20-2005 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 9:07 PM


Re: Typical Theist-Creo Bull
Okay. LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:07 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:23 PM jar has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 33 of 100 (187091)
02-20-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
02-20-2005 9:10 PM


No response?
I didn't ask those questions for my health, jar. I really want to know:
Why do you think I'm an atheist?
Why did you equate evolution and atheism?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 9:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 9:29 PM Rrhain has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 100 (187093)
02-20-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 9:23 PM


Re: No response?
I didn't ask those questions for my health, jar. I really want to know:
Okay. LOL
Why do you think I'm an atheist?
I don't. It's pretty obvious that you're a mindreader. LOL.
Why did you equate evolution and atheism?
Because beer often comes in brown bottles.
Are you having reading problems tonight?
Can I get you to go back and reread the thread?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:23 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:39 PM jar has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 35 of 100 (187095)
02-20-2005 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
02-20-2005 9:29 PM


Re: No response?
jar responds to me.
Well...no, he doesn't. Just more of the same avoiding of direct questions:
quote:
quote:
Why did you equate evolution and atheism?
Because beer often comes in brown bottles.
Right. And because many people who advocate evolution are atheists, that means all of them? I asked you a direct question, jar. I would appreciate an answer:
Are you calling the pope an atheist?
Yes, I read the thread, jar. That's why I responded the way I did: You are assuming what you are trying to prove. Circular argument. Now, answer the question:
Since when did evolution have anything to do with atheism? Are you saying god cannot create life that evolves?
Are you calling the pope an atheist?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 9:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 9:53 PM Rrhain has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 100 (187098)
02-20-2005 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 9:39 PM


Re: No response?
I'm sorry Rrhain but absolutely nothing in any of your posts has anything to do with anything I said. I have absolutely no idea where you got any of the things you've posted.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 9:39 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 10:18 PM jar has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 37 of 100 (187102)
02-20-2005 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
02-20-2005 9:53 PM


Re: No response?
jar responds to me:
quote:
I'm sorry Rrhain but absolutely nothing in any of your posts has anything to do with anything I said.
See Message 26 to which your response eventually reduced itself to "Okay. LOL."
Then there was Message 27 to which you didn't respond at all.
Shall we try it again?
You are using a circular argument. You presuppose the existence of your god, define him as you wish, and then derive the action of that definition as proof of the existence.
How does this apply to the atheist who has absolutely no connection to god? Or are you saying god is required for everything? Is there nothing that is not directly caused by god?
You seemed to agree to that statement but when I pointed out that doing so results in the elimination of free will, you disintegrated and merely responded with, "Okay. LOL."
So are you saying there is no such thing as free will? I really want to know.
And it would be nice if you responded to Message 27.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 9:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 10:28 PM Rrhain has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 100 (187103)
02-20-2005 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 10:18 PM


Re: No response?
You're right. I didn't respond. Frankly none of the messages had anything to do with anything I had posted or anything in the topic. It's very hard to respond to someone who simply makes up his own versions of what I said.
For the record.
No where did I equate atheism with evolution.
No where did I say you are an atheist.
Frankly, I can't figure out where you get any of the things you've posted in this thread.
And, as to my response to Message 26, I suppose "Okay, LOL" was redundant. I should have left it at LOL.
And relating to Message 27 it simply showed that you really hadn't read what I'd posted.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 10:18 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2005 12:13 AM jar has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 39 of 100 (187112)
02-21-2005 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
02-20-2005 10:28 PM


Re: No response?
jar once again avoids the question.
You mean you didn't write:
If doing good things, even small little insignificant things count as expressing love, if doing for the least of them is the same as doing it directly for jesus, then would that not be true across the board?
Why would the acts of kindness and just consideration of a professing believer be counted more worthy than the same acts when performed by an atheist?
And you didn't write:
The person who died was an Atheist who did not believe in GOD, but did try to live by helping others and does accept the Scientific Method. He is now faced with rather conclusive evidence that GOD does exist.
Will he abandon the Scientific Method and hold on to his non-belief in the face of irrefutable evidence?
Is that what you're saying? You didn't write the above?
Let's see if we can get you on the right track, shall we?
You said:
If doing good things, even small little insignificant things count as expressing love,
Now don't you think you have some justification to do here? When did this count as "expressing love"? But even more directly, you go on to say:
if doing for the least of them is the same as doing it directly for jesus, then would that not be true across the board?
Don't you think you need to then justify your claim of "doing it directly for jesus [sic]"?
After all, this was my direct response to that:
quote:
The problem is that this presupposes the divinity of Jesus and thus is a circular argument. It equates "love" with "Jesus" and "god" and thus anything that anybody anywhere does is for Jesus and god if it is done with love.
You are trying to argue that anything that is "love" is "Jesus" and "god." But you haven't justified why we should go with this assessment. The mere existence of those who aren't Christian proves you wrong. They do loving things all the time and do so without any connection to Jesus.
Or are you denying your own words?
You said:
Will he abandon the Scientific Method and hold on to his non-belief in the face of irrefutable evidence?
This brings into question your comprehension of what the scientific method is. Thus, my response:
quote:
How does someone who is presented with direct evidence coming to accept the results of that direct evidence get described as "abandoning the scientific method"?
Answer the question: If god presented himself before you and allowed himself to be poked, prodded, and experimented upon, why would somebody who follows scientific method suddenly abandon it?
quote:
No where did I equate atheism with evolution.
Oh, really? Then what, pray tell, was the subject line of Message 8 of this thread? Are you saying you didn't write Message 8?
quote:
No where did I say you are an atheist.
Did you or did you not say in Message 34 of this thread, when asked why you equate evolution and atheism:
Because beer often comes in brown bottles.
So seeing as how you equated them in Message 8 and did it again in Message 34 and since I am one who advocates evolution, that must mean I'm an atheist, right?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 10:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 1:04 AM Rrhain has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 100 (187119)
02-21-2005 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Rrhain
02-21-2005 12:13 AM


Re: No response?
Well kid, let me respond.
You mean you didn't write
Yes I did.
Is that what you're saying? You didn't write the above?
No it is not what I'm saying. Yes I wrote that.
Let's see if we can get you on the right track, shall we?
Okay.
You said:
Yes.
Now don't you think you have some justification to do here?
No.
Don't you think you need to then justify your claim of "doing it directly for jesus [sic]"?
No, that was covered in the context of the thread.
You are trying to argue that anything that is "love" is "Jesus" and "god."
Nope. Don't believe I've even hinted at that.
The mere existence of those who aren't Christian proves you wrong. They do loving things all the time and do so without any connection to Jesus.
Well, it certainly doesn't prove me wrong because I've never said that people other than Christians can not do good. Once again I get the feeling you have not read the thread. I have always said that other folk than Christians do good. And I've always said that they can do so without professing anything about Christianity. I have no idea where you are getting your material.
Or are you denying your own words?
Nope. Not yet.
You said:
Will he abandon the Scientific Method and hold on to his non-belief in the face of irrefutable evidence?
This brings into question your comprehension of what the scientific method is. Thus, my response:
quote:
How does someone who is presented with direct evidence coming to accept the results of that direct evidence get described as "abandoning the scientific method"?
Answer the question: If god presented himself before you and allowed himself to be poked, prodded, and experimented upon, why would somebody who follows scientific method suddenly abandon it?
My point exactly. Why would he?
Oh, really? Then what, pray tell, was the subject line of Message 8 of this thread? Are you saying you didn't write Message 8?
So that's your problem booby. Now at least that much makes sense. If you read my first non-admin post in this thread you will see a quote from Brian. When he wrote his initial addendum to the thread he made a mistake which I quoted in my response to him.
Look at Message 6. There I quote part of Brian's addendum. He said his answer was NO! when he meant, obviously, Yes!. I kiddingly pointed it out to him and he edited his post to change No to Yes. See Message 7.
So in my next response to what he was really saying I kiddingly accused him of a typical tactic of changing the goal posts and even the game. That brings us to Message 8. Please read the first line of Message 8. There is even a smilie at the end of the line.
Have you really been on this board for nearly 2500 posts and are yet not aware of my position of evolution and atheism? If so, you have been truly sheltered.
Now that we've taken care of that, how about going back and rereading the thread in context. I simply do not think that I have expressed any of the concepts you attribute to me.
But I'll gladly leave that to others to judge. One thing though. I don't remember EVER asking anyone on this board either what they believe or asking anyone to believe what I believe. I may have, I'm old and forgetful, but those are not things I do commonly.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2005 12:13 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2005 3:37 AM jar has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 41 of 100 (187136)
02-21-2005 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
02-21-2005 1:04 AM


Re: No response?
jar responds to me:
quote:
No, that was covered in the context of the thread.
Where?
Be specific.
quote:
quote:
You are trying to argue that anything that is "love" is "Jesus" and "god."
Nope. Don't believe I've even hinted at that.
Did you or did you not say:
If doing good things, even small little insignificant things count as expressing love, if doing for the least of them is the same as doing it directly for jesus
You agreed to that. Now tell us how "expressing love...is the same as doing it directly for jesus [sic]" is not equating love and Jesus.
quote:
quote:
The mere existence of those who aren't Christian proves you wrong. They do loving things all the time and do so without any connection to Jesus.
Well, it certainly doesn't prove me wrong because I've never said that people other than Christians can not do good.
But you've equated doing good with doing it for Jesus. Therefore, those who aren't Christian, when they do good, are doing it for Jesus even though they are actively doing it for some other reason.
quote:
I have always said that other folk than Christians do good.
But what you are saying is that by doing so, they are doing it for Jesus when they are obviously not.
quote:
I have no idea where you are getting your material.
From you. That's why I quote you.
Help me out here. Stop beating around the bush. Stop trying to be cute. Just come right out and say it directly.
[Fixed horrendous typo]
This message has been edited by Rrhain, 02-21-2005 03:41 AM

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 1:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 9:14 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18649
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 42 of 100 (187138)
02-21-2005 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rrhain
02-20-2005 8:10 PM


Rain can be cleansing or blinding.
Brian writes:
Essentially, Christians think that by loving others you love God.
I disagree, and believe that we can help others and not love God.
How do you define the word, "God"?
Brian writes:
I also think that God wants you to show love for Him, and to do so you would have to believe in your heart that you show love for Him through loving others.
Surely you have issues with God. I know that the cruel O.T. accounts are some of them.
What do you really know about God? Did He ever seem real to you?
Brian writes:
I would say then that the main argument of the topic would be, is it possible for an atheist to love others without loving God?
My answer is yes!
So you are saying that you don't love God or that you are an atheist and that God does not exist?
Gary writes:
I just enjoy helping others out.
What a nice guy, Gary! I should hang around with you...I wish I were as altruistic...I usually pick who to help and who to avoid. Perhaps I will get called on the carpet someday for avoiding some people that I should have been helping!
Brian writes:
Told you I wasn't thinking! LOL
And you are so cheerful and nice when you don't think! I respect you even when you DO think, but I think that your heart is bigger than your brain, professor! Don't any of those theology students ever get to you just a little bit?
Jar writes:
If doing good things, even small little insignificant things count as expressing love, if doing for the least of them is the same as doing it directly for jesus, then would that not be true across the board?
Why would the acts of kindness and just consideration of a professing believer be counted more worthy than the same acts when performed by an atheist?
Because of the contradiction within the definitions of belief. An atheist believes that there is no outside source of wisdom. Thus, Matthew, Mark, Jesus, or Paul Harvey are all just human opinions. From YOUR perspective, however, the acts of kindness count the same from all people.
And we know the SOURCE that you have, Jar!
Brian writes:
I can confess that there are many Christians who keep me from considering the faith again. If all Christians were are patient and thoughtful as you, then perhaps my opinion might change.
Jar DOES kinda grow on you, don't he? I have never disliked his responses. Perhaps I did at one time not respect them so much, but that was my own vanity and ego getting in the way!
Jar writes:
We agree that helping others is a good way to live. We agree that the scientific method is a good test of reality.
OK..OK...I want in on this one, too!
Rrhain writes:
Is there nothing that is distinct and separate from god?
Yes. There is. Do I need to prove it?
And if I don't or can't prove it, does that mean that you have joined our circle for the moment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 02-20-2005 8:10 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2005 4:26 AM Phat has replied
 Message 48 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 9:21 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 57 by Brian, posted 02-21-2005 5:37 PM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 261 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 43 of 100 (187140)
02-21-2005 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
02-21-2005 4:12 AM


Re: Rain can be cleansing or blinding.
Phatboy responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Is there nothing that is distinct and separate from god?
Yes. There is. Do I need to prove it?
That isn't the point of the question. It's to determine where someone wishes to draw the line regarding the action of god. It's to determine if one can consider the possibility that there are other ways of looking at things that aren't all wrapped up in god this and god that.
quote:
And if I don't or can't prove it, does that mean that you have joined our circle for the moment?
Huh?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 02-21-2005 4:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 02-21-2005 6:25 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 02-21-2005 9:18 AM Rrhain has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 100 (187143)
02-21-2005 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
02-20-2005 3:05 PM


Re: So let me ask a stupid question
quote:
The person who died was an Atheist who did not believe in GOD, but did try to live by helping others and does accept the Scientific Method. He is now faced with rather conclusive evidence that GOD does exist.
Will he abandon the Scientific Method and hold on to his non-belief in the face of irrefutable evidence?
Why would the abandonment of the Method even arise? After all, if the evidence is "irrefutable" then it can be shown to others.
Will god reconsider its use of "hidden divinity" and come out into the open?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 02-20-2005 3:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 02-21-2005 9:55 AM contracycle has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 45 of 100 (187147)
02-21-2005 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Rrhain
02-21-2005 4:26 AM


Re: Rain can be cleansing or blinding.
Rrhain says to Jar;
Rrhain writes:
You are trying to say that when a person does something good, it's because of god. Congratulations, jar...you just did away with free will.
No he didn't. He's saying that they do it unwittingly for God. S/he can do this with their will. If they have position A (atheism), then they do a good act of their own free and atheist will. This is loving God without them knowing. That's why the scripture says that they ask to God "when did I help you God"....(similar words).
I think you've attacked Jar because of your own misconstrued conclusions as to what he is saying. Basically he's acted very nice - and you've acted very not-nice. Even when he just ignored you and said "lol", you continued to badger him. This just shows that you are argumentative.
Rrhain, no one doubts your logical knowledge or anything, but more essentially, Jar just wasn't trying to fool anyone, and his words were understood. Re-read the thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2005 4:26 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rrhain, posted 02-22-2005 11:43 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
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