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Author Topic:   If push came to angonising torture.......
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 1 of 19 (187924)
02-23-2005 9:13 PM


Back in the ‘good old days’ when religion really did rule the roost and the inquisition was active you had to be a good god fearing Christian or else (that is, in the lands that the inquisition had in it’s grip). I have recently seen an exhibition of torture equipment of that time and it can be summed up in one word; Grim.
So a question to all us ‘heretic’ atheists out there
If the world was to collapse back to a state where church rule was as absolute as it was back then and torture was likely if not inevitable for not being demonstrability a good church going, god fearing Christian, would you stand firm to your heretic secular beliefs or cave and toe the line to avoid the painful disfiguring, crippling, and most assuredly lethal punishments?
I guess we can also swing a hypothetical scenario (one far less credible, than the one above) towards the religious among us.
Imagine the middle ages are here again but instead Science ruled the land, hearts and minds rather than the church. Belief in the divine or superstitious was not permitted, nor was any attempt to suggest that there was anything divine at work in nature. Regular attendance at public seminars and lectures on the latest discoveries was mandatory. This being an enlightened ‘dark ages’ the torture devices are even better than the ones than those that could have been devised by the religios. In short refusal to denounce your delusions of the divine would be met with a short but informative demonstration of physical principals and human biology. Imagine yourself in this world and know you believe 100% in God. You get caught praying to him and you are put to the experiment. Do you recant or hold firm ( till your arms are twisted from their sockets, and beyond)
Personally, I don’t know it I would have the guts to hold true to my views (mainly ‘cause I want to keep the guts I do have) but one small moment of pride and rebellion was standing in the chief inquisitors tribunal room in the Inquisition’s palace on Malta ( having been through the exhibition) and standing in front of the desk (admittedly it was unmanned.) and firmly told the church where to go
Note to Admins: one for faith and belief or coffee house?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by Phat, posted 02-24-2005 4:27 AM ohnhai has replied
 Message 16 by jar, posted 02-24-2005 10:42 AM ohnhai has not replied

  
Thor
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 148
From: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 12-20-2004


Message 2 of 19 (187937)
02-23-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
02-23-2005 9:13 PM


If the world was to collapse back to a state where church rule was as absolute as it was back then and torture was likely if not inevitable for not being demonstrability a good church going, god fearing Christian, would you stand firm to your heretic secular beliefs or cave and toe the line to avoid the painful disfiguring, crippling, and most assuredly lethal punishments?
I guess it would depend on just how intrusive the church was into our lives. If avoiding horrific torture simply meant showing up for church on Sunday, I don't know, maybe I'd just 'go through the motions'. But if it became seriously oppressive, I would think that some kind of armed 'heretic' resistance group would form. I like to think that I'd throw my lot in with them and fight back rather than submit to torture.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 19 (187949)
02-23-2005 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
02-23-2005 9:13 PM


If the world was to collapse back to a state where church rule was as absolute as it was back then and torture was likely if not inevitable for not being demonstrability a good church going, god fearing Christian, would you stand firm to your heretic secular beliefs or cave and toe the line to avoid the painful disfiguring, crippling, and most assuredly lethal punishments?
I'll tell 'em what they want to hear. What does it matter if an atheist lies about his beliefs?

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Replies to this message:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 19 (187953)
02-23-2005 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
02-23-2005 10:36 PM


quote:
I'll tell 'em what they want to hear. What does it matter if an atheist lies about his beliefs?
  —frog
It doesn't if the atheist doesn't care about integrity and standing up for his convictions. That said I'd be singing Hallelujah the second that red hot poker came into view.
Seriously though, in this 'what if' scenario if they'd let me off with a simple "sure, I believe in god, whatever..." I'd do it; otherwise I'd leave the country.
Barring that, I'd probably try to take out as many of the zealot bastards as possible and save the last bullet for myself. I couldn't stomach the hypocrisy of praying to some false god the rest of my life.
This message has been edited by custard, 02-23-2005 22:47 AM

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 476 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 5 of 19 (187954)
02-23-2005 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
02-23-2005 9:13 PM


I'll die before I see myself living in a theocracy. That is how strong I believe in human freedom.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 19 (187957)
02-23-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by custard
02-23-2005 10:46 PM


It doesn't if the atheist doesn't care about integrity and standing up for his convictions.
Oh, I'll stand up for my convictions. But in deeds, which are better than words. And to do the deeds I have to be alive.
Who do you suppose does more good? The secret Jew sympathizer who smuggles refugees out of Nazi Germany, or the outspoken Jew advocate who stands up for his convictions, all the way to the gas chamber? Not to put too fine a point on it.
Anyone can die for what they believe. Living for what they believe does a lot more good, though.
I couldn't stomach the hypocrisy of praying to some false god the rest of my life.
Speaking as an atheist, one finds that since one was doing that before anyway, it's not all that hard to go back. I mean this actually comes up in real life. As an atheist, do you go with your family for Christmas services? Of course I don't believe a word of it, and I feel silly singing hymns to a made-up god, but I do it for my family. My wife and I got married in a church for the same reason. Better I should swallow some brief hypocracy than make my family feel bad, after all they've done for me.

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Replies to this message:
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Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 19 (188003)
02-24-2005 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
02-23-2005 9:13 PM


I will not let anyone tell me what I can and can not believe and if it does come down to recant or die, so be it. I will die with a weapon in my hand and a defiant cry in my throat.
This message has been edited by Rand Al'Thor, 02-24-2005 02:14 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 8 of 19 (188027)
02-24-2005 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
02-23-2005 9:13 PM


I would keep quiet
ohnhai writes:
Imagine the middle ages are here again but instead Science ruled the land, hearts and minds rather than the church. Belief in the divine or superstitious was not permitted, nor was any attempt to suggest that there was anything divine at work in nature. Regular attendance at public seminars and lectures on the latest discoveries was mandatory. This being an enlightened ‘dark ages’ the torture devices are even better than the ones than those that could have been devised by the religios. In short refusal to denounce your delusions of the divine would be met with a short but informative demonstration of physical principals and human biology. Imagine yourself in this world and know you believe 100% in God. You get caught praying to him and you are put to the experiment. Do you recant or hold firm ( till your arms are twisted from their sockets, and beyond)
Would I be a martyr? Not right away. I would keep quiet and to myself, pretending to have no hint of spirituality. I would go about so robotic that people would notice a change in me from my old self before the new regime took over. I would pray in private and trust that God had a plan in the midst of this quest for human deification!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ohnhai, posted 02-23-2005 9:13 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ohnhai, posted 02-24-2005 4:50 AM Phat has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 9 of 19 (188028)
02-24-2005 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
02-23-2005 10:53 PM


My wife and I got married in a church for the same reason. Better I should swallow some brief hypocrisy than make my family feel bad, after all they've done for me.
I attend the church weddings of friends for one reason and one reason only; for them. I don’t pray (I don’t even lower my head), and I don’t sing. I try to keep my participation to a minimum. The good thing is they understand this ( I have good friends).
I personally would not get married in a church or and religious establishment. Hypocrisy is one thing, but starting a life long promise and joining like that on a lie is something I couldn’t do.
those whom god has joined. As I don’t believe god exists, what meaning or authority can those words possibly have for me? What are the implications on me and my marriage, if the joiner doesn’t exist does the marriage? Anyway, that’s just me.
When at home over Christmas I don’t celebrate it I don’t decorate and all that, but when I’m at family for Christmas I partake of the gift giving but wouldn’t go to church for mass. My mom don’t like it. She says It’s more of a secular commercial thing these days as If I would take that at face value (even from mother).
Currently trying to wean my self of saying bless you when someone sneezes, but I guess that’s so ingrained it’s gonna be hard.
--Edit-- to add two paragraphs ("I personally..." and "...those whom..")--
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 24 February 2005 10:01 AM

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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 10 of 19 (188029)
02-24-2005 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
02-24-2005 4:27 AM


Re: I would keep quiet
You mis-understand, the sci-ocracy had been around for generations and is the socially accepted norm. you would not have come in to this world knowing god, nor would your family likely to be religious and your self if you did would likely have come to god at a much later point in your life. Theism would have been as new and dangerous a thing as being a heretic in the real dark ages.
I would go about so robotic that people....
why would you go around robotic like? Do you feel it’s impossible for anger, hate, joy, happiness and love to exist outside a belief in god? That a lack of belief would some how Vulcan-ise society?
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 24 February 2005 10:01 AM

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 19 (188033)
02-24-2005 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ohnhai
02-24-2005 4:40 AM


ohnai writes:
attend the church weddings of friends for one reason and one reason only; for them. I don’t pray (I don’t even lower my head), and I don’t sing. I try to keep my participation to a minimum. The good thing is they understand this ( I have good friends).
Right there with you. I stopped that crap a long time ago. I've even gone one step further where I refuse to sit and listen to religious claptrap simply to be polite.
I won't say what I think of someone's beliefs (religious or political) unless they open their mouths and start preaching to me.
ohnai writes:
When at home over Christmas I don’t celebrate it I don’t decorate and all that, but when I’m at family for Christmas I partake of the gift
I'm all over the decorating and feasting aspect of holidays. The more holidays the merrier I say, I'll celebrate them all! But it's more from a cultural standpoint than anything religious.
At least I know the real reasons why I'm dragging an evergreen into my home in the dead of winter and why I'm painting eggs pretty colors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ohnhai, posted 02-24-2005 4:40 AM ohnhai has replied

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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 12 of 19 (188036)
02-24-2005 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by custard
02-24-2005 5:18 AM


...I refuse to sit and listen to religious claptrap simply to be polite.
Oh, I’m not doing it simply to be polite. I truly want to be there for them on their big day. I want to witness their marriage, so I stand there ,pay no heed to any preaching, I don’t pray or sing. Where it gets difficult for me are funerals and memorial services.
As to Chrimbo decorations. Yes I’m also aware of the original religions and concepts surrounding those traditions, and as I don’t believe in god or gods or the divine in general then all religious practices are as bogus as all the others to sort of quote the character Ash from the epic tome Ash: A Secret History; I’m an equal opportunity heretic. I think they are ALL talking out their asses.
--edit--corrected poor phrasing that could have lead people to reach wrong conclusions in regard to my reactions to funerals... --
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 24 February 2005 15:39 AM

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 19 (188086)
02-24-2005 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ohnhai
02-24-2005 4:50 AM


Re: I would keep quiet
ohnhai writes:
you would not have come in to this world knowing god...
I did'nt, anyway.
I came into the world knowing about God. This brings up an interesting point...namely, is belief a product of culture? I would, of course assert that NO, I know that God is apart from culture.
If I had no Bible, I never would have known this fact to be verifiable(culturally reinforced.)
I would never have had a culturally acceptable venue within which to "get saved" since there never would have been a church.
There would be no peer reinforcement and in all likelilhood no underground movement as we would now envision such an activity. I suppose that I would not go around acting robotic....
you are correct that emotions exist as a normal thing. You are asking me to imagine such a world from my current state of mind, however. To you, my state of mind (belief) is a product of cultural indoctorination. While I know in my heart that God exists apart from all of this, it WOULD indeed be a unique world in which you speak. God would reach people in a way that you have not described in your scenario. The reason? You have defined the parameters of this world, and God supercedes your parameters for all practical purposes. In my Belief, anyhow.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 19 (188092)
02-24-2005 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by ohnhai
02-24-2005 5:31 AM


I truly want to be there for them on their big day.
Wonderful. I'm sure they will later appreciate that support. That is a great thing to do and I applaud your actions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 19 (188093)
02-24-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by custard
02-24-2005 5:18 AM


We are in a discussion board, for crying out loud!
custard writes:
I won't say what I think of someone's beliefs (religious or political) unless they open their mouths and start preaching to me.
Hi, Custard. In the world according to Phatboy, God imagined man before man imagined God. I agree with you that it is often rude and presumptious for anyone to preach to you simply for the sake of intellectual smugness, naive misguided zeal, or fullfillment of cult quotas! When I step over the line to share my faith, it is in the interests of the spirit of discussion.
I am under no illusion that I will or ever even could convert anyone!
I desire conversation...ideally in a spirit of agreeable communion (ala Bryan and Jar) but it is within my admittedly absolutist and somewhat fundamentalist belief paradigm (in other words, in the Bible)
that we are in the midst of a spiritual war.
As I declare this to you, I realize how absurd that it sounds.
Quite properly, I am sounding too much like a religious fundamentalist zealot!
In reflection, if I truly do want to share a communion with atheists,
I will need to pray more and talk less. God surely loves Atheists
(even stubborn ones like Rrhain!) and I would do well to pray to God more and try and BE God less.

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