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Author Topic:   When were angels created?
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 24 (27884)
12-26-2002 7:54 AM


And for what purpose?
Obviously a God doesn't need helpers. So... Angels - when, why and what?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 8:14 PM David unfamous has replied
 Message 4 by RedVento, posted 12-27-2002 1:26 PM David unfamous has not replied
 Message 8 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-27-2002 5:56 PM David unfamous has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 24 (27944)
12-26-2002 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
12-26-2002 7:54 AM


quote:
Originally posted by David unfamous:
And for what purpose?
Obviously a God doesn't need helpers. So... Angels - when, why and what?

when? before time... why? ultimately, to praise God but also to make man's salvation sure thru the diverse interactions between angel and man...
maybe without angels, in the exact number and of the exact nature he created them, man would have sinned one day or one hour or one minute later than he did, given free will... maybe God *did* need them in order to shorten to the maximum degree the length of time sin exists in his creation... it all boils down, imo, to being created in his image... there's a great mystery there, the triune God is called such for a reason...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 12-26-2002 7:54 AM David unfamous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 10:07 AM forgiven has not replied
 Message 6 by David unfamous, posted 12-27-2002 5:01 PM forgiven has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 24 (27971)
12-27-2002 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by forgiven
12-26-2002 8:14 PM


quote:
when? before time...
And you know this how?
quote:
why? ultimately, to praise God
Why does this God need praise? If I were to create children just to sing my praises and treat them on how they praise me, not on the basis of fratricide, you'd haul me away as being a monster. A richly deserved title I may add?
quote:
but also to make man's salvation sure thru the diverse interactions between angel and man...
This assertion is based on what?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 8:14 PM forgiven has not replied

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 24 (27979)
12-27-2002 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
12-26-2002 7:54 AM


Angels seem to be god's workers. But what's funny is that they can be viewed as "demi-gods," they are immortal(as far as I know), can test god's power(Satan) and have great mystical powers. If God is omnipotent and all powerfull why did he have angels perform so many things for him on earth? And what is the purpose of angels in a supposed Monothiestic religion?
If you look at the history of Judisim you see that Yahweh was one of two god's worshipped, the other being El. So while contemplating how many angels can dance on the head of pin, consider this.. Perhaps angels are other gods adopted by early jews but given lesser roles than the combined El/Yahweh figure.
This is interesting reading btw.
Angelfire - error 404
Angelfire - error 404

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 12-26-2002 7:54 AM David unfamous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-27-2002 2:59 PM RedVento has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 24 (27988)
12-27-2002 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RedVento
12-27-2002 1:26 PM


El sounds like the Sumerian gods that were around at the time. Anu is one possibility I'd consider.
Well if the OT co-opted the Gilgamesh Flood story, why not take more from the Sumarians?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

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David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 24 (27990)
12-27-2002 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by forgiven
12-26-2002 8:14 PM


when? before time
How do you know this?
why? ultimately, to praise God
If a God needs praise, then he must feel incomplete, therefore imperfect. Surely a God wouldn't create something just to be praised?
...but also to make man's salvation sure thru the diverse interactions between angel and man.
Salvation from what? Why would they be created before time if no man existed at that point to need salvation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 12-26-2002 8:14 PM forgiven has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 816 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 7 of 24 (27992)
12-27-2002 5:22 PM


I, personally, think that angels were created when Precious Moments (TM) figurines were first conceived of, in order to make a large amount of money from people of a gooily sentimental nature.

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Kolyahu, posted 12-27-2002 6:02 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 24 (27997)
12-27-2002 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
12-26-2002 7:54 AM


What king doesn't have an army?
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 12-26-2002 7:54 AM David unfamous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-28-2002 12:49 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
Kolyahu
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 24 (27998)
12-27-2002 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coragyps
12-27-2002 5:22 PM


MLK, with the proper vowels; 'Malak' means messenger, it has the same spelling as the Hebrew word for king, 'MeLeK' (No, not milk) The term we use today 'angel' does not equate to 'Malak'. The Hebrew usage of the same symbols MLK are used in the numeric form 40+30+100=
170. Therefore because the word is the same, and its' number is the same, we can state that the words King and Messenger are equal in level. One who speaks with the legal authoriy of another is a messenger. In some cases,in the texts these messengers were men. How 'bout if we examine the possibility that given the fact that ancient kings believed themselves to be Gods, or the sons of gods, the Hebrew use of the words king and messenger, being the same; it was written without vowels, then these things have a reality to them and not just some imaginable mythologicality (what a word! try saying that three times as fast as you can). and just because there have been different names placed upon that which is, does not mean we should belittle any of them. If we believe in a higher level of ourselves that is attainable, then why is it so hard to see that there are forces which we do not understand that are part of everything too. We have to also make a solid argument that these forces had a cause and somewhere that had an origin of causes. It gets to deep. Suffice it to say, Those forces work in concert, in order for all to remain in this universe. Thereby they are in fact One Unity, All that is, all that is not and all that joins them is one, both on the inside, the outside and the in between. I have just given a message to you, am I a king,or just speaking for one? Shalom
------------------
If not us,who; and if not now,when?

This message is a reply to:
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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 24 (28011)
12-28-2002 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by funkmasterfreaky
12-27-2002 5:56 PM


An army against what? It wasn't until He made the angels that there became a devil. Why didn't God see this coming? Does He like strife?
What could this army do for a God who created everything? If God needs an army to defeat His foes, is that because A) He isn't as powerful as He says he is, B) There is more than one god and He needs to fight proxy wars, or C) He's an incomplete being who needs worship, somebody to boss around, or something else?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-27-2002 5:56 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Delshad, posted 12-28-2002 11:16 AM Mr. Davies has replied
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 7:59 AM Mr. Davies has replied

  
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 24 (28022)
12-28-2002 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mr. Davies
12-28-2002 12:49 AM


Exactly, something else.
I believe it is we who are incomplete.
It is we who cannot comprehend The Creators Will.
All analogies comparing Allahs (God`s)nature with the nature of human desire and understanding is in my opinion blasphemous and utterly fallacious.
[This message has been edited by Delshad, 12-28-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-28-2002 12:49 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-28-2002 11:55 AM Delshad has replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 24 (28024)
12-28-2002 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Delshad
12-28-2002 11:16 AM


Well, if we are incomplete then to say that we will be held responsible for our actions is just plain wrong.
Also, not holding your God or Allah, what ever name you want, is a great way of absolving your deity from the awful things it has done. That is a sham.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Delshad, posted 12-28-2002 11:16 AM Delshad has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Delshad, posted 12-28-2002 3:57 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 24 (28036)
12-28-2002 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Mr. Davies
12-28-2002 11:55 AM


Im not sure what the word sham means, excuse my english
But briefly however, I suspect that you ask a difficult question and I can understand your feelings about the issue.
I can give you my answer, but I`m not sure you are going to understand, because I have read so much about islamic theology that my answer to you would be very esotheric and hard to understand, especially for a non-believer.
This I say though, we have two different ways of looking at the issue and none of our ways is wrong, I respect your opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-28-2002 11:55 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 24 (28099)
12-30-2002 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mr. Davies
12-28-2002 12:49 AM


Originally posted by Mr. Davies:
An army against what? It wasn't until He made the angels that there became a devil. Why didn't God see this coming?
I'm quite sure God did see this coming.
Does He like strife?
No
What could this army do for a God who created everything? If God needs an army to defeat His foes, is that because A) He isn't as powerful as He says he is, B) There is more than one god and He needs to fight proxy wars, or C) He's an incomplete being who needs worship, somebody to boss around, or something else?
For one they aren't just an army, also messangers. Who said he NEEDED an army to defeat his foes? There is only one God and only because he loves us does he keep evil from completely destroying us. He is more powerful than you think. God is not trying to boss anyone around, you would like him to I think. If God was bossing people around you could have all the evidence to his existance you wanted.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-28-2002 12:49 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by David unfamous, posted 12-30-2002 9:47 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 16 by David unfamous, posted 12-30-2002 9:48 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 17 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-30-2002 11:14 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 24 (28107)
12-30-2002 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 7:59 AM


For one they aren't just an army, also messangers.
Armies are for protection and conquering, what God needs protection or needs to conquer? And what omnipresent being needs messengers?
Who said he NEEDED an army to defeat his foes?
To create an army is proof enough of necessity. Proof of insecurity at least.
There is only one God and only because he loves us does he keep evil from completely destroying us.
How about not creating evil in the first place?
He is more powerful than you think.
I see no power whatsoever, so it wouldn't take much.
God is not trying to boss anyone around, you would like him to I think.
Just some proof he exists would be nice.
If God was bossing people around you could have all the evidence to his existance you wanted.
Bring it on. Surely that's what the religious would love, it would shut-up all us pesky atheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 7:59 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
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