No Gospel without Law, no Mercy without Wrath

I think I've got the jist of what your saying:There is no way of knowing what your subjective view on God, Hell, salvation, sin etc etc is in fact. It could be totally aaccurate, totally inaccurate or anywhere in between. If you suspect that it may not be totally accurate but errs more towards accurate you do so on the basis of subjectivity thus your suspicion is a guess - hence it is meaningless in an objective sense. Because there is nothing objective in it, your method could be moving you as easily towards hell as it could heaven - that you do your best would, in the former direction mean you are just moving more certainly towards it. Whichever it is, you've no objective way of knowing either way.There appears to be no objective fixed reference on your horizon. Something apart from you from which you can get your bearings. Without such a reference you must be in the same boat as anyone who holds a totally subjective view on this matter.Irrespective of what problems others views may hold, does this accurately describe the position that you find yourself in? If you disagree, what is the objective basis for doing so (other than you believe it to be so - because all can make the same subjective statement)

Similar design, even similar genetic design, does not prove genetic relatedness.Thanks for the debate, Rahvin. I'm taking a break for a while now.This message has been edited by Faith, 09-04-2005 10:35 AM

I don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Where did I write that we are guilty the moment we are born? We are infected from birth, thus we are all sinners and we will all die of this disease - babies and adults alike. Judgement however refers to sin committed (omission or commission). To commit a sin one needs to have an active conscience (knowledge of the law) in order to be able to disobey the law (sin). Sin needs to be seen as a disease (you are a sinner) and a consequence of disease. (you commit sin) It would be evil if the law wasn't good. But the law is good. Don't murder or be unrigheously angry with people, do unto others as you would have done unto you. Don't look at another lustfully because that is the first step on a slide downwards, don't steal, don't gossip, before you judge another have a look at yourself, give to the poor because by accident of birth and partenting you could have been there yourself etc, etc. The wisdom behind these laws beggars belief. They are there for our individual and collective benefit. A mother how scolds her young son "Johnnie - stay away from that!!" is trying to protect her unknowing son from getting his hand scalded against a hot stove. Her law is put there for the childs own benefitSame thingWhat's wrong with these laws. Okay we could debate the particulars but do you not think that they are good?. What would happen if these laws weren't around for man to have built his legal system on (think about the legal system and see echos of Gods laws.) What kind of society do you think we'd have then? God cannot not be and not be all at once. That's a contradiction not lack of omnipotence. God cannot make mistakes or carry out shoddy work. Thus this world is the only way he could have done it - once he chose to do it. Which brings us back to the point.
If his purpose was to create beings who he could freely love and who could freely love him, then free will was essential. If free will then choice. If choice then something to chose between. If he is Total-Love then a true choice must involve the potential for Loves polar opposite: Total-Not-Love. Evil. And God doesn't have to create evil. He just has to give us the choice not to follow his lead. When we chose not to, then evil happens. We create it. Take a look around and you'll see it all over the place: mans inhumnity to man We chose to because we hate God. A WWII Luftwaffe pilot not only cannot help shooting down US planes. He hates them and thus choses to do it with all his might. No contradiction when man hates God. The difference is that man hates God without reason. God has done nothing to man that man didn't bring on himself. God gave man one command and a choice...and a stern warning (for his own good). Man chose to disobey God. Its mans fault that it became the way it became - not Gods.Think about it. If God exists then he made all this. And man stands there shaking his puny fist at the Creator telling him to stuff his stupid, dictatorial laws (whilst relying on others to follow them, to offset what would happen if no one did - anarchy). We don't know how the world works and have no reason not to suppose that the person who created it isn't important in it's sustinance. In telling him to go away are not trying to cut the strings of our own parachute.If it wasn't so tragic it would be amusing...

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Alright. Tell me one objective thing you know about God and how you arrive at the conclusion that it is an objective knowledge as opposed to being simply your own subjective opinionIf there is nothing, does that mean everyones subjective view is as close to the reality as yours is. Whatever their view might be?. If not, why not?

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I know of no objective things about GOD. GOD is supernatural, beyond objective testing.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

...and the second half of the original question? [qs=Jar]I know of no objective things about GOD. GOD is supernatural, beyond objective testing/qsThe supernatural may not be objectively testable. But can a supernatural God reveal himself to people...and in doing so, make them more certain of his existance than any objective test ever could. Like, If you stripped us of our 5 senses, objective tests would be meaningless - but you would have only stripped away a tiny fraction of who we are. There is much more that God can use to demonstrate his existance that the 5 senses...I'm not saying everyone who claims this, has really experienced this (the supernatural could contain other things than God. But could God do it?

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I believe the answer is yes.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't think you are equivocating, I think you are being deliberatly obtuse! I have to wonder if you sit there and write this with a straight face? You tell me that we are born in sin and that the wages of sin are death and that if you don't accept jesus you are condemmed to eternal death...etc. Now, how is that not being guilty as soon as you're born? You wrote it!Whether you think sin is some disease or not is irrelevant. It is obvious that your concept precludes that we are guilty when born. YOU are the one who stated that the purpose of the law was for us to realize we are unable to keep it. That is plainly evil. Making a law that is unable to be kept is evil. How can you not understand this? Perhaps you require an analogy?As far as the particulars, I was just starting with the 10 commandments? How is it not extortion to tell someone to worship them or you'll kill them? How is that NOT evil???

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As much as I would like the idea of omnipotence is off topic in my view

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As far as love is concerned, how is telling your son or daughter that you will kill them if they don't love you not EVIL? I don't know anyone who would say that they "hate" the idea of god by itself. If he were a just and kindly being, why would I. But I have to ask, where do you come from? There may be plenty of reasons to hate the god of the bible. He kills wantonly, he is a liar and a thief. He is a lustful old goat who takes anothers wife to beget his own child. Sounds like a lot of Elites throughout history. The god of the bible is plainly despotic, and has human emotions/needs/desires/faults. Hmm, think he could be a product of human imagination? Are you seriously contending that every military person hates the enemy during war? While they may be trained and indoctorinated to feel enemity toward the enemy and many may feel hatred when they see their friends or family die, I would have to disagree that this is the case for all. I have read many accounts of military personnel just recounting that they had a job to do, that they were trained to do. In fact, many had to train themselves to supress the idea that the things they shot at had humans in them or were humans. It is obvious that human societies have been able to do quite well WITHOUT god and his commandments. The legal systems we have are rules built by societies. We don't and didn't need god to tell us what is just. We do quite well enough without him, thank you very much.

That's only the second time in my life I've heard that word. But the first time (in the film, The Shawshank Redemption synchronicitically enough) was enough to show me what it meant. But obtuse I am not being...Physical death we all get whether we believe in Jesus or not. Agreed? The reason why we all die is because we are infected with the ultimate killer disease. It gets everyoneJudgement is a different kettle of fish altogether. After we die there are two things that can happen to us: judgement or no judgment. Judgement isn't a trial - either here or there. Judgement is a pronouncement of a verdict of a trial which has already taken place. The trial occurred during life.No Judgement: If you have Jesus, you have evidence that punishment for your own crime (sin committed) has already been paid. You can't judge someone a second time who has had the debt for their crimes paid in full. They don't belong in court.Judgement: if you don't have Jesus then you do belong in court. The verdict is guilty and punishment will be pronounced. Hell.There is only one reason why the likes of me and Faith spend the time we do on this site. To tell people that thats the way it is. Neither me or her are one bit better than anyone else here. We are still sinners. It's just that we have Jesus and have both a positive (God is fantastic to know) and a negative (Gods judgement is the most horrific thing a person will ever undergo - bar hell) to offer anyone else so that they too can make the choice for life. Just like we did That you think it is evil matters not one whit. It is not your opinion that matters here. It's Gods. Now you can reject God on the basis of your opinion. Your free choice. But there are, you may grant, things that you are not taking into account in your pronouncement. Things which you know to be the case. You have a conscience and know that you don't follow it. You cannot follow the law because you chose not to. You are a sinner. And that's not Gods fault.The issue isn't about whether God was right or wrong to make it the way he did. Whether it's fair according to your definition of fair. Whether it's acceptable that Gods plan of salavation suits you or not. You aren't in a position to affect any of that. So why rail against something you cannot change. Is it not more sensible to see your position as IT IS. And then do something about it? All the rest is wasted breath. The amazing thing about God is that he would forgive you saying this about him. There is only one sin that God won't forgive and while what that means precisely seems myterious, it does appear to be that he cannot forgive someone who does not want to be forgiven. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot: they could all be forgiven - if they would only ask. (It is unlikely that they are as their hearts got hardened in order for them to do what they did. A hard heart is unlikely to be open to the quiet call of God). But if they had asked then he would have forgiven them.Read 1 Corinthians 8:9-10. Paul refers to a law given by Moses. One of those confusing "what on earth do all those crazy laws mean" ones. He shows that there is purpose to be drawn from the law, which has a relevance other than that which one would draw at first reading. There is more to this than meets the eye. To pronounce your verdict on God based on such superficial knowledge is your perogative. Are you quite sure you have the right end of the stick though? Like it's not that everybody who comes to believe in a perfectly loving, wise and just God is an idiot who has somehow passed over all the stuff that you consider in announcing 'case closed'. Read Romans 7:15 to end of chapter. Do you recognise anything of this man in yourself. I'd be surprised if you didn'tThen read the first verse in Romans 8. Fortunately Gods standards of "it is good" are slightly higher than your own. Heaven won't contain the following:- 3/5ths of the worlds population starving or in abject poverty
- weapons capable of wiping out mankind
- a justice system where your position/wealth make all the difference in the justice you recieve
- locks, alarms, weapons, cs gas so that we can get through the day safelyetc...etc...etcSure there's good things in the world but on balance I think the world is, if you'll excuse the expression, going to hell in a handbag. We've making a complete dogs dinner of it. Open your eyes DB and take a look around you. It may be okay for you but there are 6 billion other folk sharing this space and for the majority it ain't quite good at all.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Sep-2005 01:16 PM

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I presume this is the question you are answering. If you believe God can reveal himself then has he to you? I ask because if he did, then it seems you would know it - not just believe it.This message has been edited by iano, 05-Sep-2005 01:27 PM

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

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No Judgement: If you have Jesus, you have evidence that punishment for your own crime (sin committed) has already been paid. You can't judge someone a second time who has had the debt for their crimes paid in full. They don't belong in court.

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Judgement: if you don't have Jesus then you do belong in court. The verdict is guilty and punishment will be pronounced. Hell.

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Please define what "having Jesus" encompasses.So it doesn't matter what Jesus said at the Sermon on the Mount, or what the law of Christ is, or whether the Jewish laws were good or bad, or whether we love one another or not.This really has nothing to do with any moral code what so ever.It's all about who you "know."

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

What "having Jesus encompasses" are the (by no means exhaustive) following:- Coming into a personal relationship with God. Not some religion or other which lays out rules and regs for you to follow. An actual personal one-to-one relationship with the Creator of the universe. You won't be relying on blind faith in this. Your faith will exist because you have a reason for it. Faith because you know he exists.- salvation guaranteed. Whilst your behaviour subsequent to coming into this relationship is not unimportant, nothing you do will affect that your salvation is assured. You will not go to hell, you will not be judged. You will go to heaven.- Peace. A small word but so important. Knowing God is a bit like winning the lotto. If you won the lotto, after the original excitment wore off you would be back to living life on a normal (if changed) basis. But at the back of your mind you will have the ever present thought "it's okay - I never have to worry about money again". Knowing God means you don't have to worry about anything )although you will forget this from time to time). You won't have to worry about death. You will look forward to it in fact- knowing Jesus means knowing the person who made you and who made you with a specific purpose in mind. He has a plan for you life, a task and there is no one in the world who can do it except you. People have goals in their lives. But to know the goal for which you were made beats all the self-determined goals- we all mess up. None of us get it right. Me? I'm arrogant, impatient, selfish to name but a few things. And I've grown tired of them. Jesus sets about removing these horrible traits bit by bit. He promises that he will complete that task and he won't let anything stand in the way of it - not even you! You still have free will and can chose not to cooperate but change you he will nonetheless. "How can that be if I've got free will?" He does this by removing the barriers (self-justification and excuses) we put up which hide how nasty the things we do are in fact. That's all. And when we see ourselves for how we actually are we become disgusted by it and can't help but beg him (from our own free will) to change us.- you will be forgiven for everything you've ever done. This might seem strange that God can forgive you for something you did to someone else but he can. And when he does, every bit of pent-up and repressed guilt and shame for all the rotten stuff we've done disappears. You feel as clean as a whistle, refreshed. You feel as if you have been given a fresh start. You feel like you've been born again. And when you mess up again you will fall back to the old ways and let guilt come in only to realise that this to can be forgiven. All you have to do for all this subsequent sin (if you have Jesus) is ask for it to be forgiven. And it will be. Everytime.I could go on.... In terms of the above no. Take Jesus raising of the bar during the sermon on the mount. The 10 commandments had "Thou shalt no commit adultery" "Fine", says average man. "Stay away from married women and I won't have broken that command" Jesus raised the stakes. He said "don't even look at a woman lustfully or you've committed adultery". The purpose was to show us just how far above our standard Gods standard is. Don't know about you but I haven't and can't keep this particular one. And anybody who breaks any part of the law is guilty of breaking all of it. Adam only ate an apple after all.... Precisely. In a previous response to you I wrote the following It's still the same.....This message has been edited by iano, 05-Sep-2005 04:02 PM

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Read this last night and thought of you..."Whatever may be your task, work at it heartily as (something done) for the Lord and not men" Colossians 3:23Sound like you need some well deserved R&R. Hope to see you around here again sometime.Your b.i.C. Ian

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

That is, of course, a question that should not be asked. It's frankly none of your business. My relationship with GOD is personal and between me and Her.I will deign to answer it though. GOD and I have been friends as long as I can remember. Only if I were willing to lie to myself or be willfully ignorant. If I am honest with myself I must admit that my belief is based on subjective evidence. It may well be that I think I know, but I may also be wrong. Anyone who holds a belief that has no objective evidence in support as being KNOWN is just lying to themselves.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion