No Gospel without Law, no Mercy without Wrath

I'm a bit confused as to the overall scheme as you see it: Could you answer the following in global terms.Who goes to hell if anyone.
Why do they go to hell?
What specific result (in relation to our position before God) does doing good things deliver up? I understand you say it doesn't earn our salvation but can it lose us our salvation. If so, what did God forgive when he forgave mankind?
Can Hiter be in heaven and if not - why not?)Cheers...

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I think this is an important point which might even be on topic.Is it or is it "Human Nature is to label certain behavior as Sin"?There are no real significant differences in behavior between man and the other animals. All steal, cheat, kill, hurt, fight, procreate.Is the difference (as I believe it is) the message of the Genesis story? Is the difference that mankind has the capability to know some acts are wrong?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I would agree with that if a subjective interpretation is all that is available. What is the purpose of the bible in that case. If it cannot be interpreted accurately? On what do you base that belief? Given that the Bible has been removed as a source of knowledge as to truth one way or the other because interpretation you feel above, is meaningless. If someone doesn't know what their actions will result in but by some accident of upbringing, personal makeup, chance etc happen to meet Gods criteria then is heaven just a lottery? A lottery beyond ones influence. What kind of justice is that? But this is based on what exactly - given the biblical interpretation is meaningless?

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I think paying too much attention to the issue of salvation or damnation, to heaven or hell, misses the whole point and message of Christianity. Christianity is, IMHO, about how to live not what happens after you're dead. In all, I think it's just not that big a deal and so don't worry about it.But I'll try to answer your questions or point out what I think should be asked. If there is a hell I imagine it will mostly be filled with good Christians. Mostly for little things. I expect more for sins of omission than sins of commission. Doing good things probably gains us little. That is what is expected, or at the least that we try to do good things. GOD realizes we are not always capable of succeeding and forgives us for our failures in that regard. He does want us to understand our failures and for us to try to do better. I don't know the extent of what GOD will forgive. My personal opinion, and I freely admit that it is personal opinion only, is that Hitler will not be forgiven. He intentionally harmed others. But I would say the same about Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Fred Phelps, Dutch Sheets, Gene Scott, Billy Joe Hargis, Benny Hinn and James Dobson. They will be right there with him.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You have slipped past the point I have been trying to convey to you. If god is just, then why is it that we are guilty as soon as we are born? If he is just, then why is it impossible for us to follow his laws? That is NOT just. His laws, described as perfect and just, have quite a bit of extortion in them. The commandment about idolatry, taking his name in vain, worship me on the sabbath all point toward a god who is not only an extortionist but also has an inferiority complex. If we don'f follow his laws, which in fact you say are impossible to follow, we are condemmed to eternal death.The gift is NOT freely given. It is extortion. How can I take you seriously when you can't even recognize when you are being punished. You have a disease that you are infected with when you are born and you are condemmed for it. Obviously man is being punished for a disease he can't control. God is a royal (insert discriptive expletive).{edited to add another responce}This message has been edited by DBlevins, 09-03-2005 03:16 PM

Why omission instead of commission? And what makes their sins unforgivable as opposed to the omission/commission sins committed by others. How can God forgive us our failures on the one hand and send us to hell for failing on the other. If there is a line drawn, where is it and why? If it is due to "effort/trying" as you've said before at what level are you out of the 'danger zone' and how does one know this? But you said earlier "GOD forgave mankind. GOD freely forgave mankind. GOD freely forgave ALL mankind...It's a done deal.
" What precisely did God forgive? How can he forgive us for doing something wrong then when we do the something wrong he doesn't forgive us? But we all intentionally harm others - by acts of commission and by acts of omission. That means everybody goes to hell. Unless of course a line is drawn somewhere. If so, where is this line drawn and how does one establish it for themselves.

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I imagine that we will find out where the line is once we die. It's really so unimportant that I don't know why you keep returning to it. I think the sins of omission will more likely be the downfall simply because they are less visible. Look again at Matthew 25. Everything mentioned is a sin of omission, not one a sin of commission. Mankind is simply more likely to commit sins of omission. I don't think many will be going to hell, if hell exists. And those that do will be largely Christians. The big thing is that GOD will forgive, has already forgiven, many of the sins if we actively try to see them and actively try to do better. We can never know we're out of the danger zone; all we can do is try our best.The line will likely be drawn for those that intentionally harm others, and in particular, those that intentionally harm others in GOD's name. People that support the Defense of Marriage Act as one example, will have some 'splainin to do.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yeah. Isn't the only true sin hypocrisy?I mean, if you believe something to be true, act on it if it's true and strive not to harm others, that's about as close to "the path" as anyone can be expected to walk.But when people knowingly harm others out of fear or hatred for what they themselves feel inside, how can they seriously consider themselves to be doing God's work?Or, worse still, when they demand that little old ladies send them cash in the name of God, because they hold themselves up to be beacons to faith then blow the money on hookers, well... let's just say, if you're walking a path behind one of these bozos, better stop to look at your map.

There is a difference between "the wages of sin (the disease) is death" and judgment-for-our-sins = hell. A guilty verdict (and it is the only on possible for all who are not in Christ) comes from the sin we commit. We can't blame God for it. God gave Adam free choice and Adam fell. Adam was now a sinner. Like-breeds-like, so all Adams offspring got the same disease. If we have to blame anyone then we can only blame Adam - not GodWhy didn't God do it another way?. No one knows but given what HE had to suffer, I think it's safe to say that if there had been another way to achieve his goal ( given that he is omnipotent) then he would have done it. God's goal was that we would love him of our own free will. Everyone who has ever loved would realise that that is the only love that is worth anything - not 'love' coerced, demanded, expected etc. No surprise really that we are like him in this respect - we are made in his image and likeness after all.My opinion? God had to give us a choice to love him or not to love him. Free will. Now a choice between God and xxxxxx, is no choice. God had to give us something to chose betweem. He chose to give the option: "obey me and have all that you could desire and live forever with me in perfect love with each other. Or disobey me (by me telling you there is one thing you cannot have) and die. Your choice."If God set it up that there was no choice then we're automatons. Automatons can't love nor can God love automatons (any more than we can). Don't forget just what God suffered himself through this. It pains him terribly to watch those who he loves hurt themselves and others so. So much so, he died on our behalf. And a terrible death too That would be true if the intention of the law was that we would be saved by following them. It may come as somewhat of a surprise then to hear that "the purpose of the laws is to be a schoolteacher to lead you to Christ". IOW, the purpose of the law is to make you realise that you CANNOT keep the law. That's all. Gods intention is for people to go "hang on, Gods law is perfect and I can't keep the law -heck!! That means I go to hell!!" If a person thinks Gods law is stupid or extortion etc., then they won't realise this. But if they truly come to see Gods law as being good and right then they will get that shock. And that exclaimation was precisely what God intended his laws to achieve. Not salvation - just "Heck!!"Because it's at that point that a person may turn to the only person who can fulfill the law that they themselves can't. Someone who fulfulls it for them. His name is Jesus Christ. He said "I am the way and the truth and the light, NO ONE comes to the Father, except through me." By fulfilling Gods laws on our behalf, this is how Jesus brings us to God. Man cannot help but sin - but the only sin man commits is sin he choses to. We all have a conscience. We all know what we ought to do. We chose to ignore our consciences. Every sin we commit is due to our choice. Thus God is just in punishing us for everything we've chosen to do in disobedience of his lawsMe, I'm a filthy sinner. But God doesn't look at me steeped in sin. I'm wearing a coat over my sin. A coat of righteousness. I didn't earn it. Jesus did. It's his coat, his righteousness. Gods gift offered to everybody who will take it. I probably sin more that anyone here but seeing as all this sin has been paid for, it doesn't affect my position one iota. God sees me as righteous in his sight (even if many others don't).

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

Your going to die someday. You seem to agree that it will be heaven or hell for you. You seem to hold the view that there is a line (which fair enough, answers the question asked) But you don't know where the line is. So hell it could be. You don't know what heaven is like so don't know what you could be missing if you don't end up there. You don't know what hell is like so don't know if there is any reason to fear it.Except maybe for your subjective ideas about it. Seems to me it is a lot more important than you give it credit. Like eternity is a long time (sic) Look again at the latter half of Romans 1. All sins of commission. "If hell exists" I think hell and God's wrath is adequately described in the bible and it sound pretty awful to behold. On what basis to you pick the bits you believe are true and the pieces you think are irrelevant? Like heaven is less described in the bible that hell (and wrath moreso than Gods love too). Is there not a touch of a la carte here - which happen to be the 'nice' bitsWe're back to a subjective trying our best. Thus Hitler could be in heaven and you could be in hell. Hitler may have subjectively done worse than you but you don't know his heart. God does. Maybe God saw that he was trying with 100 times the effort to do right as you do, but due to circumstance and times and psycological problems etc. he had a much harder time trying to do his best. But its his effort that count? Is your thinking not entirely subjective Jar? Uncertain, unconcerned, kind of judgemental ("my top 10 for Hell" (although I agree that many who you name give God a bad name - but hey - "let he who has not sinned....")), no idea where lines are drawn (and no basis for saying that there is a line), own ideas on hell which conflict with the bible thus the bible must also be considered by you on a subjective, pick and chose basis. Ideas about quantities for heaven and hell. No idea of where your going etc, etc.If everyone is permitted to have a subjective idea of God, then what's wrong with everyone elses view?This message has been edited by iano, 03-Sep-2005 10:29 PM

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Romans 10:9-10: " if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved....."

I believe it is called Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and IIRC according to the Bible it is the only unforgivable sin.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm having a hard time figuring out what you post has to do with anything I said.I believe that Christianity is about how to live your life. If you follow the teachings and try to do what's right, the afterlife will take care of itself. If you try to live your life for the afterlife, then you've lost the meaning of Christianity.As to Romans, hell yes there can be sins of commission. I never denied that. What I said was that the sins of omission are easier to overlook and not see and would therfore be more likely.What does your posting have to do with other than what I have already said?I don't believe there is any God's Wrath. I just don't believe there are any indications of such a thing. Certainly, that's a possibility. So what? I can only try to do my best. Hitler will be judged by GOD. I said I was only giviing my personal opinion. Of course. Can it be otherwise? Nope. I'm very certain that my interpretation of GOD's message is right. Nope. But although there might be some concern, I can only try. You asked me who I thought would go to hell. Can that be answered in a non-judgemental way? Well, I think I've shown that there is a method, that the message is to try to do what's right. The exact location of the line is beyond me and frankly, I find that whole idea ludacrous and sophomoric, like the four year old arguing with the parent "I wasn't running, I was skipping."We are not charged with finding some line and as long as we just skirt it and never step across, we're okay.The message of Genesis is that mankind has a knowledge of good and evil and that we are charged to try to do good.The message is to Love GOD and love others as yourself. If your behavior fits within that then it's probably what you should be doing. Regardless of ones interpretation of that, I believe I have shown that Hitler did not behave in that manner. Yes, the Bible is subjective. You'll have to point out where I said there were quantities. IIRC I simply said, in response to one of your questions, that I thought most of the folk going to hell would be good Christians. I think that's supported completely by the Bible. If their view leads to "love others as you love yourself" then it's fine. If though their view leads to oppressing others, as with the Defense of Marriage Act, then IMHO their views are wrong.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And you just wrote that we are immediatly guilty when we are born. Nothing has been committed. We are born that way, according to you. Just as an aside, if he is omnipotent then he would be all powerful. If he is unable to do something he is not omnipotent. What part of extortion are you not getting? This is extortion. The only way to heaven is by worshipping me, because you failed to follow my law that says worship me. In other words, worship me or I kick your butt.IOW, the purpose of the law is to make you realise that you CANNOT keep the law. <----That despot. Do you not see the inherent contradiction here?? We can't help but sin but on the other hand we choose to?

But of course everyone thinks that it is the other guy who is "rewriting the text." Therein is the rub. Your "historical fact" is my allegory.
This is why biblical interpretation must not be left to the individual, no matter how learned he/she is. Rather it should be done within the context of a community of believers. I don't trust theologins, whether they are professional or amateurs.edited quote box codes.This message has been edited by deerbreh, 09-03-2005 11:02 PM

This wasn't the point that I was referring to.Obviously everyone is punished for their own sin. However, the point I was commenting on was the one that you made about Adam's 'disease' spreading down the line. You claimed that: You imply that the disease of sin is spread down the line, but the Bible *appears* to disagree with you. It would be a better analogy if you stated that you never had a drink before, you didn't know what being drunk was like and it was God that got you drunk. Then God gave you keys to the bike, he placed the bike right in front of you to make it a little more tempting then He made sure that the lady and her baby were in the right place at the right time to satisfy His bloodlust. Neither Adam or Eve knew what these words meant, they had no idea that to 'disobey' God was wrong because they didnt know what right or wrong was until after they ate the fruit. The whole story is so obviously a man made fiction that I am surprised that anyone actually thinks that this happened. Again, another error by God. What is the point of telling Adam he would die when Adam didn't know what death was? Apparently, so the fundies tell us, nothing died until after the Fall so how could Adam possibly know what God was on about? I would have preferred God to be honest and supply Adam with all the facts instead of deliberately setting up mankind. God could also have placed the tree on Pluto, where it would be nice and safe. Alternatively, God could just have not bothered creating this tree as he knew that mankind would Fall. It is really nasty when you think about it, God knows that man would Fall, yet not only does He allow it to happen, he actually manipulates the circumstances to ensure that it does, what a nasty nasty being Yahweh is. There is an easier explanation when we consider the symbolism of trees in near eastern mythology, but the Bible doesn't contain any myths does it? Why not? He has created quite a few fundamentalists and they are nothing but brain dead automatons, so what's the problem?Brian.