What is The Atonement?

So, god paid himself a ransom so that he wouldn't destroy the people he is created yet again?

What about the defendant? Aren't we forgetting him here?If he doesn't want any of this waiving business. He has got every right to stand up and say "hang on a second - I don't agree with any of this lark. Waiving implies I'm guilty but being let off. I don't agree with the decision of the court. I won't tolerate it - I'm innocent. You can shove your waiving. Its declared innocent or nothing"What then?

You have not cleared up this contradiction.

God isn't going to nor ever has destroyed a human. Thats the horror of hell for you. And the joy of heaven.

Eventual physical death + being born spiritually dead as a result of the fathers (Adams) infection.Put to death (exposed to the wrath of God, separated from his love) as a result of ones own sintwo different things

But forgiveness has nothing to do with the offender! It is the sole prerogative of the offended party and theirs onlyIt doesn't matter if the offender agrees, rejects or is calling you names.If you forgive, you forgive. Period. You said so yourself.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

being born spiritually dead or being put to spiritual death, either way the infant will be spiritualy dead as a result of the sins of it's father.

Mainly anything of the rules that are described in Levatiucs.. there so so many, SOMEONE is bound to break them sometime.There also seems to be a different sense about what 'sin' is between
the Jewish religion and the christian religion.Sin , literally , means 'to miss the mark'. It means that someone made the wrong choice, or did not do the best they could. In the Christian
religion, there seems to be an all powerful' SIN' that corrupts everyone.
The concept of sin being 'corrupt' and dirty is absent from the Jewish concept. The idea that man is this inherently evil being (orginal sin), does not exist at all. Man is viewed at inherently good, not inherently evil. There is the 'urge to do good' balanced by the 'urge to do evil'.

Absolutely. And if you don't forgive you don't. The persons perogative too. The person may chose to punish insteadThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 07:06 PM

But, in essence, don't we all?

But that verse you quoted me as quoting says otherwise. It said put to death for ones own sins not those of the father. It draws a distinction.If a person was born spirtually dead due to father and sinned as a result without any outside interferance ie: they did only what they could do - then it would seem unjust to punish them for the sins of the father.But there is outside interferance. God calls. Thus the person who ignores the call has an option. Follow the call of the disease or respond to the call of God. I would suggest the balance is perfect that all is left over is the choice the person themselves makes

Indeed, much of the Tanakah is stories about kings, and other leaders BREAKING the laws, and not being perfect. ONe interpretation of it is that even the greats can not be perfect , yet still find favor with God.The point is if they can find favor with god, with all their faults, so can the common man.

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Mainly anything of the rules that are described in Levatiucs.. there so so many, SOMEONE is bound to break them sometime.

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I wasn't sure how specific they got.

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The concept of sin being 'corrupt' and dirty is absent from the Jewish concept. The idea that man is this inherently evil being (orginal sin), does not exist at all. Man is viewed at inherently good, not inherently evil. There is the 'urge to do good' balanced by the 'urge to do evil'.

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From what I have read about the Native American spirituality, they also didn't believe that man was inherently evil. I don't buy into it either. I like the Jewish outlook better.I haven't really been able to pinpoint when Christianity took that turn. The synoptics don't seem to support that thought.I'll have to look at Paul's actual writings again to see if they support the idea or were misunderstood.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

but that's exactly what you claim... we are all born sinners.. doomed to hell...separate from god.
You have claimed that that a child born with an illness or deformitty is suffering for the sins of it's father (see Random God rant)This message has been edited by Creavolution, 10-18-2005 03:20 PM

But I thought you said God had forgiven us ?!Are you now saying he's punishing us ?* EDIT * to addThis message has been edited by Legend, 10-18-2005 03:24 PM

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."