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Author Topic:   Statement - Reason is limited....
jcgirl92
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 16 (25470)
12-04-2002 6:04 PM


Quite a lot of people feel that if they don't have visual evidence of something that it doesn't exist. This is reasoning. Reason says that if I can touch it, taste it, smell it, hear it, or see it, I can know it exists.
Something I want to throw out there to be thrashed around is this...
Reason is limited.
Reason can help us to think with the "Cause and Effect" idea of science that even if there was a "Big Bang" that caused the world to come into effect - what caused the Big Bang to happen in the first place - if every effect has a cause? Reason can help us as we look at the design in nature and think "That is amazing - how did it get like that?" It can help us to see that the probability of nature arranging ITSELF the way it is is way too high to be a possibility.
However, reason is limited in that is restricted to the physical world. There are many questions that scientists find themselves saying - "We just can't explain that!" There is more to life than what we can encounter with our five senses.
Reason falls short of understanding life and the universe.
If there is a God who created everything, then He had to have existed outside of everything that can be seen, heard, tasted, smelt, and touched because He created those things.
So...
He is more than what can be seen.
He is more than what can be heard.
He is more than what can be tasted.
He is more than what can be smelt.
He is more than what can be touched.
So, if there is a God, He exists outside of these things and can not be known by our reasonings! Because God existed before the physical world was created, reason falls short in helping us to know whether or not there is a God. You can't understand water by living in the desert - two different kingdoms, two different realms.
Therefore, you can't really understand God by relying on what you know of the physical world. If there is a gap between the physical world and the spiritual world because of reason, then faith bridges the gap between reason and God.
feel free to thrash this one out also on my little online forum...
www.bravenet.com

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by robinrohan, posted 12-04-2002 6:38 PM jcgirl92 has replied
 Message 3 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-04-2002 6:57 PM jcgirl92 has replied
 Message 16 by Brad McFall, posted 12-10-2002 11:45 AM jcgirl92 has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 16 (25474)
12-04-2002 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jcgirl92
12-04-2002 6:04 PM


There is a problem with criticizing "reason." You are using "reason" to do so.
And I don't understand the connection you are making between reason and sense data. Very different, to my mind. A super-brain could figure out algebra sitting in a dark closet with no sense data. That's reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jcgirl92, posted 12-04-2002 6:04 PM jcgirl92 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jcgirl92, posted 12-04-2002 7:35 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 16 (25479)
12-04-2002 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jcgirl92
12-04-2002 6:04 PM


I will ask you to think about what you wrote and ask if it could be applied to Santa Claus, Peter Cottontail, Zeus, or any other mythical being.
If that is not the case, then why not?
As for the rest:
quote:
Reason is limited.
Agreed, but that is why we use science to give us a frame work to operate in and keep things, pardon the pun, honest. It at least gives us standard frames of references to start from.
Leaps in logic or seeing outside the box are all well and good but without evidence to support one's contention, all of it is just an excercise in philosophy. Philosophy is great but in and of itself, it doesn't make microwave ovens.
quote:
However, reason is limited in that is restricted to the physical world. There are many questions that scientists find themselves saying - "We just can't explain that!" There is more to life than what we can encounter with our five senses.
True in a fashion but it is that not knowing that drives us on to understand more. From what you posted, if that were true then we would have stopped long ago in our quest for knowledge. Believing in something else is fine, but what I feel is happening is that many in the YEC community want to squelch learning, unless it is about their stylized version of a godhead. I am more than happy to let others believe what they will. The only caveats are:
1: Do not tell others that they can't search or that they are searching in the wrong areas because it goes against your ideals on god and or religious beliefs.
2: No human or even animal sacrifices
3: No telling me that the laws in my country should mimic your religious tenets.
4: Keep religions, religious leaders, and religious institutions out of my government.
quote:
If there is a God who created everything, then He had to have existed outside of everything that can be seen, heard, tasted, smelt, and touched because He created those things.
So...
He is more than what can be seen.
He is more than what can be heard.
He is more than what can be tasted.
He is more than what can be smelt.
He is more than what can be touched.
How do you know it's a "He". Even more, how do you know that their is only one creator to this universe? One last thing is why can't that be a Hindu or Greek god instead of a renamed and redone Sumerian god?
quote:
So, if there is a God, He exists outside of these things and can not be known by our reasonings! Because God
existed before the physical world was created, reason falls short in helping us to know whether or not there is a
God. You can't understand water by living in the desert - two different kingdoms, two different realms.
Therefore, you can't really understand God by relying on what you know of the physical world. If there is a gap
between the physical world and the spiritual world because of reason, then faith bridges the gap between reason
and God.
Now apply the same logic to another person's non-Xian godhead. Why are you right and they wrong?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jcgirl92, posted 12-04-2002 6:04 PM jcgirl92 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jcgirl92, posted 12-04-2002 7:40 PM Mr. Davies has replied
 Message 9 by gene90, posted 12-05-2002 7:37 PM Mr. Davies has replied

  
jcgirl92
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 16 (25489)
12-04-2002 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by robinrohan
12-04-2002 6:38 PM


Am I criticising reason? Or am I simply seeing it in it's strengths and it's weaknesses???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by robinrohan, posted 12-04-2002 6:38 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by robinrohan, posted 12-04-2002 7:40 PM jcgirl92 has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 16 (25490)
12-04-2002 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jcgirl92
12-04-2002 7:35 PM


You are using reason to say that there are things beyond reason. Reason doesn't know anything beyond reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jcgirl92, posted 12-04-2002 7:35 PM jcgirl92 has not replied

  
jcgirl92
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 16 (25491)
12-04-2002 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mr. Davies
12-04-2002 6:57 PM


"1: Do not tell others that they can't search or that they are searching in the wrong areas because it goes against your ideals on god and or religious beliefs.
2: No human or even animal sacrifices
3: No telling me that the laws in my country should mimic your religious tenets.
4: Keep religions, religious leaders, and religious institutions out of my government."
RE: 1. I ain't telling people not to search! I am saying that reason falls short in understanding some things!
Re: 2. Huh?
Re: 3. The basic laws against murder, theft, rape etc are from the Bible. Do you have a problem with those?
Re: 4. Religion and government can be dangerous I agree! ie Spanish Inquisition and Taliban.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-04-2002 6:57 PM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-04-2002 10:07 PM jcgirl92 has not replied
 Message 8 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-04-2002 10:12 PM jcgirl92 has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 16 (25501)
12-04-2002 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jcgirl92
12-04-2002 7:40 PM


quote:
1: Do not tell others that they can't search or that they are searching in the wrong areas because it goes against your ideals on god and or religious beliefs.
RE: 1. I ain't telling people not to search! I am saying that reason falls short in understanding some things!
Well, some of these things are directed at you. I have seen where research has been hampered because some believe that it is against their god's wishes to look at those things.
quote:
2: No human or even animal sacrifices.
Re: 2. Huh?
Again not directed at you (or at least I hope not) but to those who think that some ancient or perverse rituals are good things to try.
quote:
3: No telling me that the laws in my country should mimic your religious tenets.
Re: 3. The basic laws against murder, theft, rape etc are from the Bible. Do you have a problem with those?
And they are part of many cultures, some of those even pre-dating the bible. It is when people promote their religion in science class or what they feel are their superior form of morality as public policy.
quote:
4: Keep religions, religious leaders, and religious institutions out of my government.
4: Keep religions, religious leaders, and religious institutions out of my government.
You left out one of my favorites, the Salem Witch trials. It is not just frothing Catholic or Islamic governments that are dangerous. Their are many Protestant denominations with a bloody and less than Christ like histories. It is those that I fear the most though.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jcgirl92, posted 12-04-2002 7:40 PM jcgirl92 has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 16 (25502)
12-04-2002 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jcgirl92
12-04-2002 7:40 PM


Duh......
It should be:
quote:
4: Keep religions, religious leaders, and religious institutions out of my government.
Re: 4. Religion and government can be dangerous I agree! ie Spanish Inquisition and Taliban.
for the last example.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jcgirl92, posted 12-04-2002 7:40 PM jcgirl92 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 9 of 16 (25644)
12-05-2002 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mr. Davies
12-04-2002 6:57 PM


quote:
No human or even animal sacrifices
Why no animal sacrifices? We eat animals. Also, it seems to infringe upon religious freedom.
(I know this is controversial. Killing animals to eat is legal but letting them kill each other for entertainment is illegal.)
quote:
No telling me that the laws in my country should mimic your religious tenets.
Why not? Doesn't that infringe upon free speech?
quote:
Keep religions, religious leaders, and religious institutions out of my government.
So a preacher or bishop, simply because they are a preacher or bishop, should not be allowed to hold public office? Isn't that discrimination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-04-2002 6:57 PM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-07-2002 11:27 PM gene90 has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 16 (25898)
12-07-2002 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by gene90
12-05-2002 7:37 PM


To gene90:
I can see your points.
quote:
Why no animal sacrifices? We eat animals. Also, it seems to infringe upon religious freedom.
(I know this is controversial. Killing animals to eat is legal but letting them kill each other for entertainment is illegal.)
It is known that children who torture or partake in the torture of small animals seem to graduate to higher prey. As for eating animals but not sacrificing them, call me a rationalist. If the animal you kill is not diseased, threatening you or others, or is not going to end up as the main course, why kill it? I've killed my own food before and I have no qualms about real hunting, like with a bow and stalking they prey (bait and wait-ers make me sick) or gutting it, but it ends up as a meal. I don't like trophy hunting.
I know I can be taken to task about my views on this, but I also don't want people trashing my yard or polluting the air. It may be imposing my views onto others, but I'm not into wasting things.
quote:
quote:
quote:
No telling me that the laws in my country should mimic your religious tenets.
Why not? Doesn't that infringe upon free speech?
In my opinion, and only my opinion, no more than say yelling "Fire" or "Nerve Gas" in an overcrowded theatre. What I have seen is that most religious tenets are based on how to worship or appease their god. If that doesn't qualify as a state supported religion, I don't know what does.
quote:
quote:
quote:
Keep religions, religious leaders, and religious institutions out of my government.
So a preacher or bishop, simply because they are a preacher or bishop, should not be allowed to hold public office? Isn't that discrimination?
I can see that that was poorly stated. Ok, how about no giving of tax dollars to religious institutions to do government work. I'm not saying there can't be religious institutions involved in anything, just don't give them my tax dollars.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by gene90, posted 12-05-2002 7:37 PM gene90 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-08-2002 12:15 AM Mr. Davies has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 16 (25903)
12-08-2002 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Mr. Davies
12-07-2002 11:27 PM


quote:
It is known that children who torture or partake in the torture of small animals seem to graduate to higher prey.
I happened to be one of those small children at one point. So were alot of other people I know/still know and NONE of them moved on to larger prey.
quote:
As for eating animals but not sacrificing them, call me a rationalist. If the animal you kill is not diseased, threatening you or others, or is not going to end up as the main course, why kill it?
I am not up to speed on all religions and their sacraficial procedures and such. I do have some knowledge of the old Jewish practice. The sacrafice was exactly that a sacrafice, to sacrafice to God the best of what you have, realizing that it was God who provided for you anyway. Always the best and firstborn. It would not seem appropriate to cheat God like that. It's not a sacrafice really if the lamb is sick and dying anyway. What did that cost you. Nothing, it comes at no loss to you so why is it a sacrafice?
This is why the sacrafice at least in Jewish tradition had to be a "perfectly good animal"
quote:
I can see that that was poorly stated. Ok, how about no giving of tax dollars to religious institutions to do government work. I'm not saying there can't be religious institutions involved in anything, just don't give them my tax dollars.
Yeah I sure wish I had more say in what happened to my tax dollars. For one being Canadian the leaders of my country are by far the most ridiculous bunch of babelling morons I've ever seen. It emabarasses me every time that half faced idiot leaves the country. I wish he'd just stay home till his term is over.
For one In my opinion the gov't here anyway wastes way to much money on welfare programs and such. This is not the job of the gov't. This is the job of the church, to care for those in need. (church being the body of Christ not a building) Unfortunately we don't do our job like we should so the gov't ends up doing it. The gov't job is to run the affairs of the nation. The churches job to attend to the needs of the people.
We shouldn't need gov't money at least in the Christian church anyways. God will provide for those who do his work, and sacrafice what they have to help those in need.
So I agree no tax dollars to religion. No tax dollars to schools. No tax dollars to health care. No tax dollars to welfare. No money to social programs period.
Unfortunately right now the church is not doing it's job it has left it to gov't. Now we have a useless church and a useless gov't(it's spread too thin). And our tax dollars have to go to schools, welfare, and other such wasteful social programs.
Don't get too upset at me for saying this, right now it is necessary for these programs and any country or gov't that has them is doing a good thing. Unfortunately it just spreads gov't too thin. I'm not an advocate of ridding these programs at this time, I sure wish the church would get back to their job though. Might give some credibility to Christianity.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-07-2002 11:27 PM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-08-2002 12:46 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 16 (25906)
12-08-2002 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by funkmasterfreaky
12-08-2002 12:15 AM


quote:
I happened to be one of those small children at one point. So were alot of other people I know/still know and NONE of them moved on to larger prey.
Think Jeff Dahmer. I am glad to hear that you're not one of them. Also sorry to imply that all who participate in animal torture don't go on to bigger and better things.
That still doesn't say that it still isn't sick though.
As for Sacrificing, well, if you want to sacrifice a diseased and sick animal to something that may or may not exist, that's fine. As I stated, "If the animal you kill is not diseased, threatening you or others, or is not going to end up as the main course, why kill it? I already stipulated diseased so have at it. Why an omnipotent and powerful god would require a sacrifice that could lead to somebody going hungry as the good stuff gets charred and carried away into some heaven is beyond me.
One thing though, wouldn't the act of giving up a sickly lamb kinda be a slap in the face of something that wants fresh and prime?
As for wastful programs, everyone has a pet peeve. I don't live on the coastline so I don't want my tax dollars used to replenish sand along the strands of million dollar homes and hotels. But they say it brings in tax dollars. One person's well thought out government aid program is another's idea of pork.
But, I wouldn't worry too much there guy, as you're from Canada, your tax "dollars" aren't worth much anyways so I wouldn't worry about it much
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-08-2002 12:15 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-08-2002 1:10 AM Mr. Davies has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 16 (25909)
12-08-2002 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Mr. Davies
12-08-2002 12:46 AM


Yes unfortunately we too are victims of the U.S. Wanna talk soft wood? Free trade, so long as it works for us and jacks you. Why we maintain this "friendship" is beyond me. Sure doesn't do our country any good. Unfortunately we have so much trust in this next door neighbour of ours we don't even have a military. And what military we do have ends up doing the dirty work for the U.S. Can't wait till they decide they need our resources for free and try and take them. Be surprised what a farmer his shotgun and a flat of Canadian beer can do.
quote:
Why an omnipotent and powerful god would require a sacrifice that could lead to somebody going hungry as the good stuff gets charred and carried away into some heaven is beyond me.
If the people were worshiping and sacraficing, then God will provide that's the point. To trust him to provide, not to rely on what you have.
quote:
One thing though, wouldn't the act of giving up a sickly lamb kinda be a slap in the face of something that wants fresh and prime?
Yes it would be offensive to God, I thought that was what I said. It's not that God wants fresh prime, so much as he wants the act of sacrafice. To give up the best of what you have. That's what makes it a sacrafice. Otherwise it cost you nothing and it was not a sacrafice.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-08-2002 12:46 AM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-08-2002 1:58 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 16 (25914)
12-08-2002 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by funkmasterfreaky
12-08-2002 1:10 AM


I'm not sure what the thing about the US is all about. When I think of Canada, I think Hockey, etc. I also think of Big Bother, Little Brother. As far as who's giving it to whom, well, I think that ebbs and flows.
As for the part of a god wanting sacrifices as it provides, if would be one thing if every morning, people would wake up and see food for them already caught. They could then smell the eggs, sausage, brussel sprouts, tofu, oatmeal, hey whatever rocks your world. Then there'd be a setting, a big one at that, at the head of the table where the best cuts, choice selections are placed. Then it be completely understandable that this god provided and deserves something. Even if it just brought the sheep to the pen for the people to sacrifice it, and made sure that the rain fell so crops could grow.
But what I see is the sweat and toil of human labor that provided the food. I just cut out the part where somebody else gets credit for working the back 40 or dressing that cow.
The work is from people, not any god I've seen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-08-2002 1:10 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-08-2002 3:12 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 16 (25915)
12-08-2002 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Mr. Davies
12-08-2002 1:58 AM


Yeah sorry just got a little worked up there. About the Canada/U.S thing. Not that big of a deal unless you dwell on things too long. Just venting I guess.
Anyways, who created the cow, the back 40 whatever? (as a Jew) God did. Who then delivered you out of Egypt? God did. The Isrealites were provided for by God. They knew it. They sacraficed because of this. It's a form of thanksgiving. If you didn't believe God was providing then you wouldn't sacrafice. This is probably as far as I can take this argument. It was a part of worship, like a Christian who tithes. Giving the first 10% of everything they earn to God. Sacraficing what you have to God out of thankfullness for how he has provided for you.
------------------
saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-08-2002 1:58 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
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