Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Pascal's Wager - Any Way to Live a Life
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 76 of 126 (438456)
12-04-2007 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by riVeRraT
12-04-2007 6:40 PM


riVeRraT,
re: “What does the ability to choose, have to do with the OP?”
It has everything to do with it. The OP asked: “...is employing Pascal's Wager in your approach to life an authentic and intellectually honest way to live!?” In order to employ the Wager, a person would have to have the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things and since that is not possible, the Wager is invalid right from the start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 12-04-2007 6:40 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 12-05-2007 1:19 AM rstrats has not replied

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 77 of 126 (438458)
12-04-2007 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by kuresu
12-04-2007 6:47 PM


kuresu,
re: “Mind giving the evidence showing that choosing to believe is impossible?”
Well, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and no one that I have asked has been able to do it either. However, I would really like to have that ability. If you are implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ”x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ”x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ”x’ exists or is true?
Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by kuresu, posted 12-04-2007 6:47 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 12-04-2007 7:24 PM rstrats has replied
 Message 79 by kuresu, posted 12-04-2007 7:56 PM rstrats has replied
 Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 12-05-2007 6:52 PM rstrats has not replied
 Message 90 by Rrhain, posted 12-06-2007 3:46 AM rstrats has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 126 (438460)
12-04-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:11 PM


on belief
What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ”x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ”x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ”x’ exists or is true?
It is a spectrum. On one end is I do not believe, on the other is I do believe, but between those two extremes is a whole series of steps with variations of levels of belief or disbelief. All of those steps are the result of examining something you consider as evidence and either accepting or rejecting it. Each acceptance or rejection is a choice.
Edited by jar, : -a

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:59 PM jar has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 79 of 126 (438465)
12-04-2007 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:11 PM


ah, so your evidence rests on your own personal disbelief that belief can be changed. yours, then, is a fallacious argument.
Further, you require the belief to change instantly. Why must belief change instantly in order for belief to be willed? Can it not be a gradual process?
What about theists who become atheists, or atheists who become theists?
What about creos who will believe in any cockamanie idea so long as it supports (in their minds) their god(s)?
How about showing some psychiatric studies showing that one cannot choose to believe in something? That is what I meant by evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 8:21 PM kuresu has replied

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 80 of 126 (438467)
12-04-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
12-04-2007 7:24 PM


Re: on belief
jar,
re: “...between those two extremes is a whole series of steps with variations of levels of belief or disbelief.”
You can’t have different levels of belief. Either you believe something or you don’t.
re: “All of those steps are the result of examining something you consider as evidence...”
If beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them, then evidence is not necessary - - prudent in some cases, perhaps, but not necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 12-04-2007 7:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 12-04-2007 8:11 PM rstrats has not replied
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-04-2007 9:39 PM rstrats has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 126 (438469)
12-04-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:59 PM


Re: on belief
You can’t have different levels of belief. Either you believe something or you don’t.
Maybe YOU can't and if so, I pity you.
If beliefs can be obtained by simply CHOOSING to have them, then evidence is not necessary - - prudent in some cases, perhaps, but not necessary.
I'm sure that is true.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:59 PM rstrats has not replied

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 82 of 126 (438471)
12-04-2007 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by kuresu
12-04-2007 7:56 PM


kuresu,
re: “...so your evidence rests on your own personal disbelief that belief can be changed.”
I also said that no one that I have ever asked to demonstrate their stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things has complied with that request.
re: “Further, you require the belief to change instantly. “
It has to change instantly. You can’t believe that something doesn’t exist and at the same time believe that that same something does exist. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind changes to the other.
re: “What about theists who become atheists, or atheists who become theists? What about creos who will believe in any cockamanie idea so long as it supports (in their minds) their god(s)?”
I’m afraid I don’t understand your point. BTW, what are “creos”?
re: “How about showing some psychiatric studies showing that one cannot choose to believe in something?”
Were you able to consciously CHOOSE to believe that leprechauns exist as I asked? If not, that is one study that shows that you can’t simply consciously CHOOSE to believe things. That is evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by kuresu, posted 12-04-2007 7:56 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by kuresu, posted 12-04-2007 8:33 PM rstrats has not replied
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 12-04-2007 9:24 PM rstrats has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 83 of 126 (438481)
12-04-2007 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by rstrats
12-04-2007 8:21 PM


Even your asking of other people doesn't count as evidence. Why? Because it is anecdotal. Anecdotal testimony makes for poor evidence, which is largely why the sciences do not rest upon it nor the courts, should they have physical evidence (such as incontrivertible DNA). {ABE}Further, people may not think they can actively choose to believe, when in fact that might be possible. This is partly why personal testimony is unreliable.{/ABE}
Beliefs do not have to change instantly. You are right in the sense that there is that one moment where you go from "I don't believe" to "I believe" (or vice versa), but that process can be a long path, including "I might (not) believe". That you fail to see this is no surprise, given your response to jar.
If you don't understand my point, it's maybe because you don't understand your own argument. You argue that is it impossible to choose to believe (or not, the corollary I outlined). The groups I mentioned are people who have chosen to believe or not. Better yet, it's not exactly anecdotal evidence, because these people exist and we can track their change (or refusal). {ABE}Also, because we don't have to rely on what the people say about themselves, but rather, we can rely on positions they state and we can see the change and we can see the evidence of their choosing to change (such as C.S. Lewis choosing to become a christian, when he was an atheist), they become actual evidence.{/ABE}
Having been here for 3 years, I would imagine you know what a "creo" is.
You also do not understand what a scientific study is, if you think that your request on my belief about leprechauns and my response (should I give one) constitutes a psychiatric study. {ABE}My response would be an anecdotal response.{/ABE}
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 8:21 PM rstrats has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 126 (438488)
12-04-2007 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by rstrats
12-04-2007 8:21 PM


rstrats writes:
You can’t believe that something doesn’t exist and at the same time believe that that same something does exist. There has to be an instant when the one state of mind changes to the other.
That's quite obviously wrong. Between not believing and believing there's a whole lotta "I don't know". On the vast majority of subjects, for the vast majority of our lives, we're in the "I don't know" area.
Do you believe men walked on the moon? Probably. Do you believe Hitler escaped in a U-boat to Argentina? Probably not, but you probably don't have enough information to form a clear belief.
Do you believe my grandfather was in the Red Army? You don't know.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 8:21 PM rstrats has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 126 (438490)
12-04-2007 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:59 PM


Deja Vu all over again?
You remember we went over this once before in Choosing to believe and not a lot has changed since then.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:59 PM rstrats has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 126 (438506)
12-05-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:00 PM


It has everything to do with it. The OP asked: “...is employing Pascal's Wager in your approach to life an authentic and intellectually honest way to live!?” In order to employ the Wager, a person would have to have the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things and since that is not possible, the Wager is invalid right from the start.
I agree with everyone else that has replied to you so far. And by you telling us that no-one has been to show they can choose, is not proof of not being able to choose.
What about believing by faith? How does that fit into your description of only believing by evidence?
There are many different levels of belief, as jar had stated. Sayings like "I believe whole heartedly" are not around for nothing.
If I see a magic trick on TV, and even though the evidence was right in front of me, I can still "not believe" it's true. So evidence is not the only thing driving this belief feeling we were created with.
By the way (BTW) you can hit the peek button, to see how we are creating these quote boxes, and also welcome to forum
And a creo, is a creationist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:00 PM rstrats has not replied

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 87 of 126 (438675)
12-05-2007 6:25 PM


Although my position is crystal clear to me, it’s obvious that I am not articulate enough to present it so that you can see the reasonableness of it. And if you are correct in your position, it’s obvious that I am not smart enough to understand how that position is anything other than incorrect. I guess we’ll just have to leave it at that.

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by kuresu, posted 12-05-2007 6:50 PM rstrats has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 88 of 126 (438685)
12-05-2007 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by rstrats
12-05-2007 6:25 PM


or, you know, you could try learning what we have said or try learning how to articulate your ideas better.
If your idea is so right, why should you give up on it?
If our idea is so wrong, why should you accept defeat?
I call your cop-out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by rstrats, posted 12-05-2007 6:25 PM rstrats has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 89 of 126 (438687)
12-05-2007 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:11 PM


Articulate enough? You haven't even tried to explain yourself. You've only made statements, no explanations.
Well, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, and no one that I have asked has been able to do it either.
This is a statement, and a false one at that. There are several people here telling you that they have the ability to choose.
If you are implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it.
Sure, evidence is not proof. Anything beyond evidence, is a choice of believing. That is a decision you make based on many things.
Plus if we weren't actually able to choose, then that word wouldn't even exist.
What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another?
The reasons for that are numerous. You may not believe in God, because there are no good reasons too. But then certain things happen in your life, and you change your mind based on evidence, be it subjective, or objective. You could even change your mind again.
We think, therefor we are.
CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist.
Who said anything about "without a doubt"?
There are always doubts, if something cannot be proven. That's why there are many different levels of belief.
Evolution has an overwhelming amount of evidence (so I am told) so people believe in it very strongly. But not beyond the shadow of a doubt. If new evidence popped up tomorrow against it, any logical rational person would have to change their minds.
Same thing with God. A person could be an atheist all his life, and at one moment, an angel could appear to him, and then he might change his mind. But he doesn't have to, he can choose to go on not believing.
Leprechauns? I believe in them. I was one in my 6th grade play called revenge of the leprechaun. I believe in the possibility that they could exist, but that level of belief is just about zero. There is nothing to base my belief on. Just stories, and the stories are not relevant to me or anything I have experienced (other than the school play) at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 PM rstrats has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 90 of 126 (438753)
12-06-2007 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by rstrats
12-04-2007 7:11 PM


rstrats writes:
quote:
Well, I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have
You've never talked yourself into or out of something?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 PM rstrats has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024