On Reward and Punishment

You just prove my point, because there is no rational reason to choose to be a yankee fan... What drives us to form groups is our instinctive behavior as social animals wanting to be with our own. Some people are more driven than others. This behavior is apparent across the board, but shows most that it is need driven rather than rational chosen behavior in sports fans ... imh(ysa)o ... the ones that paint themselves in war paint for the games etc. (whether red sox or yankee).Enjoy.

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I aggree it is need driven rather than based on reason.On another note I am somewhat dissapointed my OP has not received many responses from those who adhere to a view of existence based on Biblical revelation.Where is everyone?Perhaps this is too far off the topic of the forum.

The rug has been half pulled out in a number of countries, and on the evidence so far, you're absolutely right! High levels of social cooperation are a characteristic of these countries."Happy atheists" seem to be a good thing for the world.

Hi Grizz,
How about we go one better and say you could prove to me there is no God.I have stated on this forum that if that were possible I would not change anything. I will explain.When I was seven years old I started reading the Bible for no other reason than it was the only book in the house. There was no TV only a battery radio that we would listen to the Grand Old Opery on Saturday night.Just a month before my 10th birthday I asked the Lord Jesus to forgive me of my sin and give me eternal life. Which I believed that He did what He said He would do.From that moment I have trusted in God to lead me and guide me in my life. I continually study His Word to better equip myself to live in this world. I believe God led me to the most beautiful woman in the world to be my wife for the past 50 years. I believe that God gave me the many talents that I have. I believe that God has provided everything I ever needed.From the moment I asked Jesus to save me I have had peace, joy, happiness, contentment, satisfaction and security. These are the things that everyone strives to attain. But I have had them all.The drug addict searches for these things in drugs.
Some search in strong drink.
Some search in sex.
Some search in riches, fame, and glory.
Some search in religions of all kinds.
Some search in humanism.
Some may find these things for a fleeting moment but it soon passes.Grizz these things I have had from the moment I asked Jesus to save me.So if you could prove to me that there is no God and I could go back and live my life over again I would not change a thing as I have had what everyone desires out of life.My motto is if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

what, other than your own particular faith that it is true, makes your religion any different than any other? i think you will find that people can abuse the jesus just as much as they can abuse anything else.i've seen it personally a few times. people addicted to church, and the high they get from it. especially in fundamentalist/evangelical/charismatic circles. granted, it's a little difficult to see when you yourself are in the grasps of the disease, but that's the same with alcoholism, or any other addiction.you're just advertising your drug of choice. same motto alcoholics typically have -- they don't see anything wrong with it. it makes them feel better about their lives.

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My guess is the world would cease to exist.There is an interesting logic surrounding the reward factor. In your analogy of motives to conquer effort, you failed to consider the condition where people act on love. A case where there is a total sacrifice without any return.I believe that a healthy human/ Creator relationship is bound mainly by living up to Gods standards. A very similar arrangement to our own parent child relationships however, with far greater implications. Although the formula is very much the same, the variables change, as and does the nature of the equation.There were times when people faced consequences similar to your model(job). Despite that it was not life long and was rewarded, the subject was unaware of this and for all intended purposes surrendered to objectivity. - I'm not sure people today would fair so well though.

Hi Icant,My motive was not to debate beliefs but simply pose a question to get people thinking about what motivates us. I often here that without a morality mandated by a divine influence man would suddenly feel the need to go out and act against his own instincts and emotions.As far as your beliefs I am glad they have brought you happiness and if you have weighed the evidence and can reach no other conclusion then more power to you. As long as those with differing views keep in mind everyone deserves the same respect one demands from others we can all aggree to dissagree.Regarding your first question - no - I cannot disprove the existence of a God deductively. I can present an argument that the notion of a God interacting with mankind on a personal level is improbable - at least to me. If you wish to debate this topic perhaps we can set up a new thread.

Hi pbee, I guess you need to define further what a total sacrifice entails. Also the argument boils down to why does one 'act' on Love? What is the motivation for doing so? How are you defining 'God's standards'? Do you mean the way people act towards one another or towards God or both?Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote boxEdited by Grizz, : No reason given.

What about this question, Grizz?Do you love anyone so much that you would remain faithful to them even without hope of ever being with them again? It is not beyond human ability to do so, even when the love is imperfect and ordinary.The laws of God are designed for our benefit here and now. They are simply a guide for how humans should behave regardless of any outcome in the next world.If I chose at this moment to live a life of pleasure without consequence to fear in some other world, what do you think would happen?Ultimately, I would lose everything. I would destroy the love of my husband, the future of my children, the respect of my family.I don't love GOd enough to be good all the time, but I am wise enough to know that it is GOd doing the loving when He ordains that I should live in peace and harmony with my brethren, that I should respect my husband, provide for my children, and care for myself spiritually and physically. I know that what GOd commands is good, for life, not death.

Hello Anastasia, This really didn't answer the question I proposed but I welcome the response anyways.It sounds like you are equating pleasure with something evil and something to be avoided. How are you defining what pleasure is?
Something that feels good to the senses? Something that brings about a positive mental experience like love or joy? Both?How would this cause you to lose everything?

Why would choosing to live a life of pleasure cause displeasure to someone else? Surely your plans for a happier life would include your loved ones and it would make them happy to see you happy.
Good lord, you don't need fear in your life to accomplish what mother knows best. Trust yourself. Sacrificing your happiness teaches your children how to sacrifice theirs too.

How did I not answer your question?You want to know if anyone could love GOd enough to keep HIs commandments if there were no reward. I know that it is certainly within human ability to love for its own sake, if the love is great enough.So, I am saying that I may not have a great enough love or knowledge of God at the moment to follow HIs rules at all times, although some people do. In a hypothetical no Heaven/Hell situation, the fact that I have critically examined the commands of GOd, and that I find them useful here and now, coupled with trust, would most likely make up for whatever I lacked in love. 'A life of pleasure' is a euphemism for a sinful indolency. I consider myself to be surrounded by pleasures of the appropriate kind, but it's not so much of wondering what is pleasurable, but of how one uses pleasurable things correctly.

As I said, 'a life of pleasure' is a synonym for what you are calling hedonism, or self-indulgence.Pleasure, btw, has nothing to do with happiness. Fear? Who is talking about fear?Sacrificing personal happiness, you may know, is one of the things which makes a great parent. It makes a greater happiness grow, one which is not dependent on pleasure.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Your use of the word 'pleasure' seems to mean immediate self gratification. This is a very limited interpretation.The pleasure obtained from seeing your offspring grow and develop into productive members of society leading happy and fruitful lives may not be immediate and you may have to sacrifice some short term gratification to achieve it. But that does not mean it is not pleasurable. Is happiness itself not pleasurable?

Correct. That is how I was using it. Sure, but more to the point: if one is happy following the rules of God, who cares about an after-life?