God: Knowable or not Knowable?

Yeah, sorry about the essays. I'll try to keep it short. Intersting, because my God is the God of absolutes. Why compare to the idea when you can compare to the real thing? I've been taking my time getting back to you because, like you, I do not want to offend you concerning what I believe; however, I am compelled to tell you what I believe is the truth, and what I have come to understand as truth, not just because I believe it or want to believe it, but truth for truths own sake. (BTW; don't worry about offending me or my father, for one my father doesn't know I'm talking about him, and me personaly, I don't get offended easy. As for my uncle, you couldn't offend him if you tried, nor can you ask him what change he saw in my father) I just want to throw something up here because I do still believe that we can know God. And im going to include some verses for and aft so you get the context of the message.'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. (rest of the world) For in it the rightiousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." (Hab. 2:4) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrightiousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrightiousness,Because what may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attrbutes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse.Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful but became futile in their imaginings and their foolish hearts where darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptable God into an image made like corruptable man, and birds, and four-footed animals and creeping things.' Rom. 1:19-23'But now the rightiousness of God apart from the Law is revealed, being witnessed by the prophets, even the rightiousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all, who believe. For there is no difference; For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.' Rom. 3:21-23'But God demonstrates His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' Rom. 5:8'For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.' Rom. 6:23The last time I checked Budah didn't die to remove my sins, Mohamed didn't die to remove my sins. Only One person in history has ever died for my sins, and He said this, "My sheep know My voice." I would like to hear your comments on this. I have never meet a Budist munk or someone of the Islamic faith that has had the same effect. It's kind of long but here is one of the main reasons why you are having trouble believing that people can know God. Watch Christian Videos - Today's Popular Video

Hello imageinvisible, I hope you had a nice holiday. I've been away for a few weeks having some Christmas fun Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything wrong with your style, I don't mind reading anything you've put together. It all seems to have purpose and not be simply "filler". I was just trying to admit my own problems with long-writing. I tend to blab sometimes. But, I am comparing it to the real thing. This is my whole problem, remember? I don't know that your God is real. I do know that the idea and concept (of nice, good...) is real. Therefore, basing my absolutes on the concept is basing them on the real thing. As far as I'm able to tell what's real, anyway. Thanks for the thoughts. But you don't have to worry, I like hearing other ways to think about things. It gives me the opportunity to see if what I think actually makes sense. I wouldn't expect anything less. It's just that I'm not very good at accepting truths about this world we live in unless they can be shown to me to be true. Some truths are more important to me than others. It's those that are most important that I need to be very sure are completely grounded in reality. The last time I checked, Buddha didn't require any amount of death or blood shed to remove any sins. I like that sort of philosophy better. It seems, um... "more good". Not that it matters, though. I don't have any more reason to believe that The Way of Buddha is actually a part of reality than the God of Christianity is. What is it you mean by "His image"? As far as I can tell, I've seen "His image" in people who do not even beleive in "Him".Personally, I cannot tell any difference between those who believe in the Christain God, the Jewish God, the Islamic God, Buddha, Asian God(s?) or even nothing at all. Every single group of these people, religious or not, has the same thing in common as every other group of people. Some are good, some are bad, some are smart, some try very hard to help others, some do not.Since I cannot tell any of these groups of people apart in any meaningful "Godlike" way, I tend to think that God doesn't impart any sort of special status to any group of people. This may be because God doesn't want to do things that way. Or it may be because God doesn't exist.

Thats good to hear. I had a pretty good Christmas myself, My father came down to visit from Idaho, and my mother gave me one of the best gifts I have ever recieved. A strong's exhaustive Bible concordance. It's pretty cool, I have already used it several times since christmas. Buddha isn't credited for being the Creator of the universe though. By your own admission here [It seems, um... "more good".] you seem to be saying that if heaven exists, everybody will admitted because that would somehow be right or good. If this where the case [and I assure you that it is not] even someone like Hitler, for instance, will be admitted in. Without having to meet any requirments to gain access. If so then 'God" will have to make some serious apologies to the Jews, orthodox catholics, and protestants that Hitler killed in his concentration camps. Where is the justice in that? There is none. The world today has lost sight of the True God, and His holy and just nature, because (dispite what you say concerning seeing His image in others) His image isn't being portrayed in this world today except by a remnant (a very few). God is a fair and impartial judge, who will not show favoritism or mercy on any that do not seek His forgivness. That aside however: The diferance is in the teachings, the fundimentals, and the fact that God, as He is represented in the Bible, is no longer being taught in his churches, is no longer being lived by those who claim to be His people, therefore noone sees Him for what He realy is. You seem to have overlooked another possibility. There are two forces at work in the universe, perticularly on earth. A force of good and a force of evil. Only one of these forces is in complete control, that is the force of good (which is God). God can use even an atheist, an unbeliever, to carry out His will on earth. The point being that you have overlooked the posibility that God, though they do not believe in Him nor give Him the glory (recognition of being God) He can still use such people to do His bidding. The evil one, satan (the little 'g' god of this world whose alter is material things and idols made of matter and flashing lights), on the other hand, can only decieve one into carring out his desires. Through lies and deceit, he tricks and suduces peoples hearts and minds into sin and rebelion against God. A point to remeber is that this little 'g' satan, has already been defeated. Jesus defeated him when He died on the cross and rose again. Satan knows he has lost, he also knows that his time is very short, that he will soon be cast into the pit of fire that has been reserved for him, by God, since the beginning. Satan is so stinking evil that, instead of giving up and surendering to the will of God and to his fate, he wants to take as many humans with him as he possibly can. Someone once used this anology to illustrate how evil satan is. Imagine a man goes into a bank and pulls out a gun to rob the place. The police arive, and surround the bank. The guy inside knows he's caught and that he can't escape. Robbing the bank was evil enough (a sin) but here is where satan differs. Instead of giving up, the man in the bank begins to kill every last person in the bank with him that he can, to take as many with him as he can before the police storm the bank and kill him.Now you may be tempted to question that if God is in control, then why do bad things happen? Why do people and children suffer, die, etc. etc.? There are several folds to the answer to this question. First and foremost I believe (contrary to what many, even in the 'so called' christian church today, believe) that the Bible is the literal Word of God and contains the true history of the world and the universe. From the Bible I can decern that God, when He first created the world, the universe, and everything therein He created them perfect. However man, who was the whole purpose behind this creation, chose to try and live his life without God. Therefore God gave man a taste of what it is like to live without Him. God removed a small portion of His providential grace from the universe, and it has been slowly decaying ever since. IOW. Man is responsible for bringing sin, and with it death, suffering, etc., etc., into the world, and all of creation has been cursed ever since.Another fold of this answer is that all things work to the good of those who believe in God. (the God of the Bible) This means that events in our lives that, at the time seem to be bad, through many different steps and occurances, actualy workout in the end to the benifit of those who believe in Him. It's only when the end result is reach often times that one can clearly see the complete sovereignty of God. That nothing happens apart from His will, which culminates in the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ. (the last book of the Bible) [there are many other folds to the answer to this question, but to keep things short I won't go into them in this post]*one may also ask how I can beleive in the Bible as the inerant word of God in light of what the majority of secular scientist say concerning the history of the world, and what others have (falsely) claimed that the Bible says concerning the earth (i.e. that the bible says that the earth is flat, etc, etc,.) [the bible says that the earth is round that the horizon is curved and contrary to other claims that the world is hung on nothing] Because thousnads of years before modern science ever discovered them the Bible claimed them as well as: the life of the flesh is in the blood and that every green plant is given to everything that has breath for food [which sustains life]. Forthermore because time and time again the Bible has proven itself to be truth.

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Disclaimer: Topical discretion is advised.
This post may contain information, logic/reason exercises, and/or questions used to illustate what I base my logical conclusions on and to expond upon a particular idea. That information/etc. should not be debated in this thread, and any questions that do not fit the topic should not be answered in this thread. Many of these questions/etc. are retorical and/or are included to elicit a mental response not necessaraly a verbal (or in this case a literary) one.

My father gave me one of those about twenty years ago. Are you familiar with e-Sword? You can download different versions of the Bible and search them quickly. You can also download an annotated KJV with Strong's built right into it.By the way, Strong's will tell you where the same word is used, and you can learn something from the context. What it won't do is tell you what words "mean". Don't try to pull something like created-and-made-are-different using Strong's.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

No, this isn't what I intended at all. But this is getting onto the topic of "which religious ideas are better". The subject is interesting to me, but I think we'll lose the original focus of this topic ("Is God Knowable?") if we waver too much. A good possibility. But I'm still left with the same problem. How do I know "the force of good" is God? I can't tell. How do I even know if there are two forces in the first place? When I look at the world. I don't see two forces, or even one force anywhere. I see a normal, natural, real world. I also see lots and lots of human-constructed-ideas that are layerd on top by humans and taught to other humans by humans. I don't see how I can know any of that is true though. I'm not tempted to ask that question at all. The only question I'm tempted to ask is the same one from the beginning of this thread. "Is it possible to really know God?" I don't see how this question can possibly be answered. Yes, but there are lots of other topics that go over this sort of thing. I'm only asking one question. A much more fundamental question. Before we get into what God is like, and how God interacts with the world or why God does anything, there's a more basic question.Is it possible to know God?This is a bit of a tricky question, because it is not asking "Does God exist?". Nor is it asking "What is God like?". The question is asking, for example, if we can identify whether or not "a voice we hear" is the voice of God.I hear a voice in my head. There are a few possibilities as to where this voice comes from:1. The voice is my own.
2. The voice is not my own.
2a. The voice is from God.
2b. The voice is not from God or me, but from another source.I personally do not understand how to discriminate between the voice being my own or not my own. But, we can even just move on to choice 2a and 2b. How can we know this voice is from God, or if it's from another source? This source could even be an entity posing as God, this posing could even be benevolent as opposed to malicious.So, is it possible to know this voice is from God? Is it possible to know God?I am claiming that it is not possible to know God as far as it is possible for me to know that my television set was built by a company called Samsung.We can identify that my TV was built by Samsung to a very high confidence level. (It's written on the TV, I can call Samsung and look up the serial number and confirm they made it, I can visit the Samsung production plant where they make many other TVs).We cannot identify that the voice in my head is from God to any sort of confidence level similar to how well we can identify my TV is from Samsung. I don't know if the voice is mine or not. Given the voice is not mine, I don't even have a way to identify that the voice is God's or not.Oh, I forgot option 3. That the voice is my girlfriend yelling at me. Wait.. that's a real voice, I have to go for now, have fun

Just wanted to mention that I did watch the GodTube link you provided. I'm sorry I only watched the first part though (there's 5, I think?). It was 35 minutes itself so watching any of the other parts was a bit much for me. I didn't really understand what it had to do with figuring out if God was knowable or not. Unless you're implying that I'm under the influence of the devil? That is possible, but I don't see any reason to believe it's true. Even if it is true, I don't see how the solution of going to church and listening to preachers and preaching the gospel myself would help any. I'm more inclined to bring kindness, happiness and self-esteem to as many people as I possibly can. This video goes against those goals, as far as I can tell.The video seemed more inclined to bring people to the Christian church and act as good Christians (or at least what this preacher thought a good Christian was). The path this preacher offers isn't for me, I don't think it's a very good or righteous path. If you'd like to discuss the link itself, a new thread for that would be appropriate, I think.

(I know jar is not here to respond...but I had to bump this topic )

quote:

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How is someone's taste for a given god any different than someone's taste for a given ice cream?

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My point throughout this debate...which was supported by Stile...is that it is irrelevant how well a human can know God IF God can in some active way know us and make a relationship between wee little us and omnipotent vast Him possible.I argue that through Jesus, this is possible. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Its obvious, is it not?

I still support this idea.That is, I don't see what could ever stop a God from having a relationship with us.The relationship, on our side of things, could be as fulfulling and powerful as any possible human-relationship. Perhaps even more so.However, the relationship on God's side of things would be somewhat limited depending on just how much "greater" God really is than we are. That is, if there are "great" things God can understand and we cannot, then we are at a loss to be able to "commune" with God about those things.Basically, I see nothing in the way of a theoretical relationship with God. But, this really is a side topic and doesn't get into whether or not we can know God.On if we can know God or not, I still do not think it is possible because there is still no verifiable evidence about God. As I said before: Message 5

If one rejects the revelation God has given to us in His old and new covenants; then yes, one cannot know the God who exists because the god of this world has blinded their eyes (John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4).When one enters into relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ through the new birth (John 3:3-7, John 6:28-29), then our God is very knowable "in the things He has revealed to us." Blessings

You didn't even answer to Stile's argument that the reason God is unknowable is that you cannot tell if your being deceived or not.How do you go about determining if the "revealed things" are really from god or if they are tricks of the devil?

Others (nyself included) have tried many times to get a clear answer from John in vain. He'll probably answer something like "Those that accept god's truth know it is true" and think he has explained it. I'd suggest you stop bothering.

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I hunt for the truth

The things that happen to those who believe and honor Jesus as Lord according to the revelation of God's word as given/recorded in the Bible "ARE REALLY FROM GOD."Those who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ can be tricked into having no so-called religious belief, or beliefs in all manners of other religious beliefs. Satan is very happy with either.Since Huntard hit the nail on the head, he need not reply.Edited by John 10:10, : added commentEdited by John 10:10, : added another comment

How do you know that?

I cannot explain it any better than John who walked and talked with Jesus before and after His crucifixion, and also after He ascended into heaven.