quote:You would be a frustrating teacher had I signed up for your class. Not only would you force me out of my comfort zone of like minded believers, you would actually get me to test my belief with critical thinking and unbiased experimentation
It sounds like you don’t want actual teaching. You just want someone to reinforce your pre-existing beliefs, right or wrong.
If you want comfort rather than truth that’s up to you, but this is an attitude that reinforces jar’s references to the “Christian Cult of Ignorance”.
quote:There is One God. Even if I threw religion and the Bible away, the belief makes perfect sense. Pantheism is weak and indecisive. Polytheism is ignorant.
Such claims really do demand reasoned argument. Where’s yours?
quote:Monotheism assures me that if I have a problem with a product, the Store Director owes me the rights of a customer. He can, of course, refuse to give me what I demand.
Really? The attitude I see more often is that even daring to complain is fundamentally wrong. So much for the “rights if a customer”.
quote:How confusing would it be if I had a room full of "Store Directors" who chose to vote a consensus and I was forced to conform if I wanted to be part of that buyers club?
Three observations here. First you don’t understand polytheism at all.
Second “ignorance” is quite different from “Phat wouldn’t like it”.
Third even as analogy this sucks. You don’t usually take complaints direct to the CEO or even a director. Even if you did you don’t deal with only one business, so you would be dealing with multiple people - you don’t blame the hardware store if the baker sells you a stale loaf. You take that complaint to the baker.
Now lets take "The Holy Spirit" into the Lab. Not every scientist can simply do this because they dont *know* that such a critter exists...certainly not to the extent that they conclude this awareness...this presence or feeling of peace, wisdom, and "good vibes" towards others can be quantified. How do they know, for example that this awareness...this feeling...this attitude is anything more than gas from a bad burrito from last nights meal? (Through sensing the same presence after a night of fasting, perhaps.) Through feeling unusually generous towards others whom they otherwise may be selfish towards. Through a sense of wisdom to only help and encourage others and not to try and "win" or "judge" or feel superior towards, or anything that you (the control group) may charge to be found in any Buddhist, or Atheist, or Muslim. In summation, my point of contention is with your presentation of logic,, reason, and reality itself. Im not saying you are not right but your perspective and conclusion is not right for me. It is not how I believe and it is not how I understand reality.
Nothing in there explains what the Holy Spirit is.
You claim you are bringing the Holy Spirit into the lab yet never do so.
Think Phat, think.
You claim Monotheism makes send yet also claim three different entities are God. That is three Gods not one god. You can claim that they are all the essence of God but again, Trinitarianism and even pre Trinitarianism assert that at least two are separate critters. Jesus is the son, not the Father. Jesus sits on the Right Hand of God.
You claim Monotheism makes send yet also claim three different entities are God.
You dont understand it and cant count. Nobody is adding anything. If anything, three character aspects equates to One character. Mathwise, 1x1x1=1. Sheesh, jar. Cant God be monotheistic and yet have a human character while remaining monotheistic? Allah sure cant. Potter explains it well in Message 95
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
I believe that Jesus is God...in fact that He is GODS Character. No mere anthropomorphized human created idea, though you may employ such an argument. Does that strike you as funny? Am I doing a disservice to the God in your own head? Did you ask too many questions to settle on that answer? You appear more to be a comparative religions truth seeker who decided early on not to settle on what you would derisively label the Biblical Christian culture of ignorance and fantasy.
Yet it never was about their fantasy. It was never directly their doctrines so much as it was their behavior that irritated you. It may well have been encouragement from parents or Socratic teachers who also did not believe that Jesus was God. What you and every other EvC skeptic have in common is that you do not see evidence and it is this fact alone which keeps you from choosing to believe. Furthermore, the evidence that would initially have convinced you was not signs and wonders. Nor Angels or demons. The evidence which eluded you was the behavior and actions of those who claimed to know Jesus.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
quote:What you and every other EvC skeptic have in common is that you do not see evidence and it is this fact alone which keeps you from choosing to believe. Furthermore, the evidence that would initially have convinced you was not signs and wonders. Nor Angels or demons. The evidence which eluded you was the behavior and actions of those who claimed to know Jesus.
Oh, I certainly noticed THAT evidence. But it’s hardly favourable evidence for you, is it?
I think it must be obvious to an outsider that anyone who truly "had the Spirit or indwelling presence of the Creator of all seen and unseen...as we claim to have, would not be afraid of giving everything up. When EvC challenged me on that, I was finally forced to face my disconnect between what I preached and what I actually did.
As a moderate to conservative leaning person, I still place too much faith in the world system of traditional American values and money as it is and not as how most conservatives wish it were. For better or worse, we can no longer bully the world and as you and I both know, Jesus never did. Christian Nationalism has always been a lie.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Good question for discussion. Lets talk hypothetically.
Could Jesus have freely refused to go to the cross?
Was He capable of rebelling against GOD (His Father) and succumbing to the self will which so many part time Christians have?
You have stated before that His Life was more of a lesson than His death, but I guess what I'm asking is whether He died to his flesh (being human, after all) daily or whether he too was rebellious to His own Father occasionally.
Good scripture lesson.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
Stop trying to tap dance your way from the question Phat.
There's a pattern that's been obvious for over a decade that instead of addressing questions or reasoned arguments you try to palm the pea and misdirect attention towards totally irrelevant nonsense.
quote:I think it must be obvious to an outsider that anyone who truly "had the Spirit or indwelling presence of the Creator of all seen and unseen...as we claim to have, would not be afraid of giving everything up.
In that case how can we know that anyone “truly” had it? There are people who will give everything up for their faith, but it’s not restricted to Christianity.
If your “evidence” is selecting exceptional Christians while ignoring those of other faiths it’s not exactly good evidence of anything than your bias. In fact it’s a pretty good example of confirmation bias.
Not to mention the awful people who have claimed to be Christian - some of them truly terrible.
Quit trying to frame the issue the way that you want me to think. You too have been doing that for years. I told you plainly what I believe. If you had a son he quite obviously would be seperate from you. If GOD had a son, the answer may not be as clear. Think, jar. Quit simply trying to frame issues into what you were taught.
Perhaps we should examine the scriptures that pro Trinitarians use and critically evaluate them.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
You can examine whatever you want Phat but Trinitarian Doctrine is clear and consistent as well as impossible, absurd and unsupportable.
The issue is that YOU claim to be a Trinitarian Christian therefore it is up to YOU to explain how 1 + 1 + 1 == 1 while maintaining the phantasy that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are actual entities, that each is "God" and that there is only one God.
It's simply not my problem Phat; I freely acknowledge it is absurd and impossible and irrational and illogical and yet accepted dogma marketed by the Snake Oil Medicine Men.
I cannot explain to you what the Holy Spirit is to a believer. (and not just any garden variety believer such as a Hindu or a Jew. I am talking Born Again Christians. Not "Christian Nationalists" or Evidenced based Episcopalian Intellectuals who view God as a philosophical concept gleaned from a book written, edited and redacted by humans.
David Diga Hernandez explains the way that I think articulately, (in my opinion) honestly, and goes a long way towards describing how the best of the Born Again Christians think. If he scares you or disgusts you, there is very little else I can say.
Listen to his explanation of the Holy Spirit. (and yes, Sid Roth is usually sensationalist and flaky, but this episode was refreshing, in my opinion)
And again, it is not 1+1+1. It is 1x1x1.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” - Criss Jami, Killo
“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You (1894).
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