God's judgement and Determinism

Me and Arachide are two different people, but we're acquaintances in real life. Even the sucjective sense of responsibility is a consequence of the deterministic world. There is no real difference, but a perceived difference in our experience.

But the determinism is irrelevant. The subjective sense of responsibility is what (divine) judgement is all about. Again, how is it "unfair" to judge a failed component as a failure?To continue the interrogation, your avatar is pretty funny, but is it supposed to be a creationist joke? Is this thread a ruse to push the idea that God doesn't judge us on our behaviour?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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I disagree that you have no control over your behaviour. Come down from the ivory tower, forget the marble-drop physics, let go of the schoolboy "logic" and look at the real-world question.

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The proposition is not "Do you agree we do not have control over our behaviour?". You give answers on questions i don't ask. Once again, "Do you agree that one cannot be responsible for behaviour he/she absolutely has no influence on?". So IF a person does not have control over his/her behaviour, is that person really responsible for that?

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Never mind your claims that you have no control over that decision. You've said that. We're all bored with that claim. Say something new.

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I can't help. If someone asks me the same questions over and over again, i continue to give the same answers.

Once again, no, I don't agree. Marble-drop determinism is utterly irrelevant to responsibility for behaviour. Having no control over the micro-states of one's brain is not the same as having no control over one's behaviour.You're overblowing the significance of the word "responsibility". Being responsible for your behaviour isn't necessarily about "blame". It's about facing the consequences of your behaviour. Just as your behaviour is caused by a marble dropping through a maze, your behaviour causes other marbles to drop.Judgement is about deciding whether or not the marble wound up where God wanted it to go. It's about which nail is out of place or which marble is unbalanced. That isn't very productive. If you're trying to defend the OP, you need to think of new and better ways to do it.

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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Having no control over the micro-states of one's brain is not the same as having no control over one's behaviour.

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One's behaviour is the result of the micro-states of one's brain, so can you explain what you're saying here?

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You're overblowing the significance of the word "responsibility". Being responsible for your behaviour isn't necessarily about "blame". It's about facing the consequences of your behaviour. Just as your behaviour is caused by a marble dropping through a maze, your behaviour causes other marbles to drop.

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Sure one marble causes other marbles to drop. But it's about where it begins. Imagine you're god (or the laws of physics) and you rule a person like a marionette. He has no free will, everything he does and thinks goes by your hand. Maybe you let him murder someone or - as you like - let him spend all his money on luxury instead of poor people. Can you hold him responsible for that? No.

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That isn't very productive. If you're trying to defend the OP, you need to think of new and better ways to do it.

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I'm not 'defending' anything here, i'm willing to make concessions when i'm wrong...but i simply haven't heard any arguments that counter the proposition. And believe me, i'm trying the best and most logical ways to explain.

This would be so much easier if you would just think about the question: Do you have control over how you spend the $100 bill in your pocket? That level of control is the only one that matters. Whatever brain-states may have caused the decision don't matter. That's where you go wrong. I have tried to get you to think of it as a computer program instead of a marionette. God writes the program but He doesn't control every machine cycle. If there's a bug in the program and it outputs something bad, like a murder, then the programmer certainly can hold it responsible. You're expecting the programmer to throw up his hands and say, "It's all my fault. I put the bug in the program, so nothing can be done about it." But you're just explaining the same erroneous marionette scenario over and over again. Address the alternative. Explain how it's "unfair" for a programmer to debug his program.

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

If God wrote the program Himself, and punishes people in it for malfunctioning, He isn't exactly being ethical. God knew it was going to happen. The people cannot help being born into what you call God's program.God creates the snake and then says to Himself: Boy, this thing is sin!Edited by The Agnostic, : Clarity

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This would be so much easier if you would just think about the question: Do you have control over how you spend the $100 bill in your pocket? That level of control is the only one that matters. Whatever brain-states may have caused the decision don't matter.

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Within that illusion of free will, you have control yes. Or better said: you have the illusion of control.

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That's where you go wrong. I have tried to get you to think of it as a computer program instead of a marionette. God writes the program but He doesn't control every machine cycle. If there's a bug in the program and it outputs something bad, like a murder, then the programmer certainly can hold it responsible. You're expecting the programmer to throw up his hands and say, "It's all my fault. I put the bug in the program, so nothing can be done about it."

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"I have tried to get you to think of it as a computer program instead of a marionette. God writes the program but He doesn't control every machine cycle." Up till here i can follow you."If there's a bug in the program and it outputs something bad, like a murder, then the programmer certainly can hold it responsible." The programmer can hold the output responsible for a bug in the program the programmer self wrote?

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But you're just explaining the same erroneous marionette scenario over and over again. Address the alternative. Explain how it's "unfair" for a programmer to debug his program.

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As said before it certainly is not unfair for a programmer to debug his program. But it is unfair to judge (heaven/hell) outputs on actions they do not have influence on.

It isn't punishing people "in" the program. It's fixing bugs in the program. How is it unethical to debug your own program? So you keep asserting, but I'm suggesting that He doesn't necessarily analyze every machine cycle. If you think He does, you'll have to roll Him out and get Him to post here to back you up. Bugs can't help being written into a program. What's wrong with fixing them? I have no idea what you're trying to say. Edit some clarity into that sentence too, please.

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

The Programmer can (and must) hold the bugs responsible for their bad output. That's because He wrote it. Again, you're expecting the programmer to throw up his hands and say, "It's all my fault. I put the bug in the program, so nothing can be done about it."

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

And what if it is his fault?So, assuming i'm the programmer, if you don't have a free will but i make you do things, it would be okay for me to punish you for bad actions that i have let you done (you couldn't help) which are actually my mistake?And even then, what would be the benefit of that for the programmer? A programmer who debugs his program doesn't doom his bugs to the darkest pits of hell. He adjusts the rules of the system.Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.

That's what programmers do. They fix the mistakes they made.Don't get too hung up on the idea of "punishment". Think instead of fixing what doesn't work right. A programmer doesn't punish a program, he fixes it. You're making too many assumptions. Your determinism idea will only work if you assume that God analyzes every machine cycle on a nano-second-by-nanosecond basis and if you assume that all bugs go to the "darkest pits of hell".Set those assumptions aside. Think it through without the assumptions.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

That's exactly what an omniscient God does. And the Bible explicitly states in Revelations that the sinners will be thrown into a fiery pit.Both assumptions are perfectly reasonable and backed up by scripture.

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Your determinism idea will only work if you assume that God analyzes every machine cycle on a nano-second-by-nanosecond basis and if you assume that all bugs go to the "darkest pits of hell".

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Besides, these two things are exactly those that are not necessary in a deterministic system. The only conditions are the laws and the initial state of the universe.Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.

So you're using scripture to back up your idea that God is unfair? Doesn't that strike you as just a tiny bit inconsistent?

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels