God's judgement and Determinism

I think it would be more accurrate to say that there will always be internal and external motivators to behaviour and there will never be a time in our lives when our behaviour is not based on something.However, you could draw a line in the sand and say "this is the point when these motivators are so limited in effect that the exhibited behaviours could be called free will".But you are still left with the idea that all behviour is exhibited for some reason, even if that reason in unidentifiable.When you get down to it it's our emotions that normally dictate our behaviour: we select the behaviour based on our aversion/attraction to it.

I'm assuming you agree with the concept of determinism then?

In theory yes. But practically no.

Sorry, this post can be deleted (double post). Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.

The idea of not having a free will seems to be counterintuitive. It is hard to get rid of that what one always saw as a 'certainty'.Let me illustrate this so called certainty by imagining a vertical marble game where a marble is being released at the very top. The moment of release can be seen as the beginning of the universe, whether this is caused by a creator or other forces. Each nail stands for a decision. Confronting a nail, the marble goes either left or right.The marble descends and stops somewhere at the bottom. It seems coincidence what this result is, but from the moment it is being released the marble follows exactly the laws of physics (gravity, friction etc). To us it seems there are several options where the marble could end. This is how the illusion of coincidence or free will is created.Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.

There's one who understands!So what do you think about this philosophy in relation to the idea of people being judged by God or Allah?

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In theory yes. But practically no.

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If you agree with it in theory, what does that make you think about "God's Judgement" of people? Doesn't it sound a bit unfair?

That would seem conflicting to me. But i don't think that's an interesting point to debate on, one can agree or disagree with that while it remains an opinion.What intrigues me is that people try to fill in the situation before the beginning point with "god" or the "big bang". So according to the deterministic system it is a believe in something we cannot possibly know. Even if we had all the knowledge in the world, and we had the power to calculate back to the point of beginning it is impossible to go before that point as it is a point where no laws of physics are. Within our frame god per definition is an impossibility as we're talking about something out of our frame. Paradoxical, isn't it?So where does this idea of judgement come from? That would be humanity. It is a logical outcome of the point of beginning and the laws of physics.

Are you just trawling for somebody who agrees with you? Everybody understands the silly marble-drop kind of determinism but we live in a real world.I've already shown you why I don't think it's "unfair". If you want to discuss the fairness issue, why not discuss it?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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Everybody understands the silly marble-drop kind of determinism but we live in a real world.

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I don't think this answer really regards to the content of my post and from your words i sense some aversion which might indicate what i said before:

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The idea of not having a free will seems to be counterintuitive. It is hard to get rid of that what one always saw as a 'certainty'.

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But to get back...i don't get why you interpret this "silly marble-drop" as not in the real world. I'm talking about a normal situation with all the physics here.Edited by Arachide, : No reason given.

Well I've argued before that the xian gods judgement is stupid because it is able to put the theory into practical applicataion.The xian god is supposed to be able to predicte with absolute certainty the actions of anyone at at any time under any circumstances.It make him a bit of a bastard really, if he judges us for doing what he already knew we would do under conditions he set up.

And it isn't in response to your post. It's in response to The Agnostic's. What has physics got to do with real-world decisions? How does the marble-drop relate to where you decide to allocate your resources?It's the things we do in the real world that we are supposedly judged on. How does marble-drop determinism absolve you of responsibility for your actions?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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And it isn't in response to your post. It's in response to The Agnostic's.

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I never indicated it was, and even though it's to The Agnostic i'm still able to react on it.

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What has physics got to do with real-world decisions? How does the marble-drop relate to where you decide to allocate your resources?

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Your real-world decisions are a logical outcome of the physical state of your brain which follows the laws of physics.

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It's the things we do in the real world that we are supposedly judged on. How does marble-drop determinism absolve you of responsibility for your actions?

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The Agnostic marked this before on the first page:

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I think we should differentiate between "responsible" in the legal sense and in the moral sense.

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Legally, the murderer may be responsible for what he has done. There are also many practical reasons to lock up murderers. (E.g. to discourage criminal behaviour, to protect society from dangerous people and to give the relatives of the victim a certain sense of justice)

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Of course you are. But if we can't follow every bounce of the marble in our real-world decision-making, if we don't know every physical micro-state of our brain which determines our decisions, how is that different from a random marble-drop? In the real world, aren't we dealing with the statistical results of millions of marble drops instead of the minute details of one? Then you and/or The Agnostic would have to distinguish between legal and moral in terms of God's judgement.If you spend all your money on luxuries instead of on the poor, how is that not your responsibility?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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But if we can't follow every bounce of the marble in our real-world decision-making, if we don't know every physical micro-state of our brain which determines our decisions, how is that different from a random marble-drop? In the real world, aren't we dealing with the statistical results of millions of marble drops instead of the minute details of one?

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Both the simple situation of the marble and the complex situation of our brain follow this deterministic system. Just because we're too limited to fully perceive this complexity doesn't mean it's not true. We see the marble drop, what material it's made of, we can measure it's weight, in what position the nails are, what the angle of the board is and so on - but of course it's more difficult to exactly understand what in our brain causes our behaviour. This happens in way smaller levels but as mentioned also follows the laws of physics.

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Then you and/or The Agnostic would have to distinguish between legal and moral in terms of God's judgement.

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If you spend all your money on luxuries instead of on the poor, how is that not your responsibility?

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This is interesting, i get back to this later because i have other things to do now.