|
Author
|
Topic: God's judgement and Determinism
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
|
Message 16 of 106 (442199)
12-20-2007 3:18 PM
|
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
12-20-2007 3:03 PM
|
|
If they taught you to be good and you weren't, it would go against you. I think the argument would be that if you went against it then you really weren't taught ot be good.
Whether or not we can make choices? That what it seems to be to me.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:03 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:29 PM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
Genes + environment = personality. Personality + situation = behaviour I don't think this accounts for everything. You have some control over what parts of you personality are expressed. The whole nature vs demeanor thing.
Personality + situation = behaviour Also, you have a choice in how you behave that is independent of your personality. We are not at the whim of our urges. We can choose to behave in a way that goes against what comes naturally, or go against how we are compelled to behave. Of course you could just push it back to going against the compulsion is the behavior you have no control over. But it is counter intuitive to me. It certainly seems like I am choosing the behavior I exhibit. Of course, that doesn't prove that I am. But I think its going to be hard to convince me that I'm not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 6:42 AM | | The Agnostic has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
Catholic Scientist writes: I think the argument would be that if you went against it then you really weren't taught ot be good. The old blame-the-teacher gambit, eh? If I don't know geometry, it's because I wasn't "really" taught geometry. Fire the teacher. That might work in isolated instances, but at some point, don't we have to take responsibility for what we learn or don't learn? At exam (judgement) time, it's to late too pass the buck.
Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
|
The Agnostic
Member (Idle past 5955 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: 12-17-2007
|
|
|
Message 19 of 106 (442213)
12-20-2007 3:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
12-20-2007 3:03 PM
|
|
quote:
How is "different upbringing" beyond human control? It just moves the control back a generation.
I think I need to take it to another level, because my point doesn't seem to be getting through. Imagine a universe that has a certain initial state (let's call it state "X") and a certain set of laws. If we assume that the laws of physics are constant and apply universally (which they do) there is only one possible way this universe can turn out. For if you want to achieve a different outcome, you would either have to: a) Change the initial state or b) Change the laws of physics Since our brains (and therefore, our behaviour, which is produced by the brain) are part of this universe, they are predisposed to produce a certain behaviour, because they cannot escape the laws of physics. The decision to attack the baby was already fixed at the very instant the universe came into being! I'm certainly not denying that we can make certain decisions, but these decisions are a logical consequence of a prior physical cause. The illusion of free will is exactly that; an illusion. Catholic Scientist rightly remarked that this idea seems counterinvtuitive, and it does. But so does relativity. Added to that: Nobody seems to have any trouble assuming that the orbit of a distant planet around its star is deterministic. However, we somehow think that us, humans, are exempt from this determinism, which, I think, is slightly arrogant. It's like claiming to be exempt from the laws of physics.
quote:
I'll ask again: what do you want to discuss? Whether or not we can make choices? Whether or not we're responsible for our choices? Or is it just another God-bashing thread?
Certainly not. I'd like to discuss the question whether or not our behaviour is determined (which I strongly believe it is) and examine the implications of the answer to that question for the Biblical concept of judgement. Edited by The Agnostic, : Typo
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:03 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 20 of 106 (442219)
12-20-2007 3:56 PM
|
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
12-20-2007 3:29 PM
|
|
The old blame-the-teacher gambit, eh? If I don't know geometry, it's because I wasn't "really" taught geometry. Fire the teacher. Well, if the teacher is teaching at A squared plus B squared equal the square root of C, then it is the teachers fault. What if the parents taught the child to be bad?
At exam (judgement) time, it's to late too pass the buck. Assuming you have ample time between the exam and the class to make sure what the teacher taught was correct.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:29 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 4:08 PM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
The Agnostic writes: The decision to attack the baby was already fixed at the very instant the universe came into being! Then so is the outcome of this discussion, and there would be no point in wasting time on it.
However, we somehow think that us, humans, are exempt to this determinism, which, I think, is slightly arrogant. It's like claiming to be exempt from the laws of physics. Not at all. Planetary motion is pretty simple. Human behaviour is considerably more complex. There's nothing "arrogant" about thinking that something you can't predict is unpredictable.
I'd like to discuss the question whether or not our behaviour is determined (which I strongly believe it is)... On a woo-woo philosophical level, you can reason till the cows come home that everything is predetermined and all we can do is ride the roller coaster. But on a practical level, we do have decisions that we can make and have to make. Should I help my neighbour shovel his sidewalk or sit here watching Survivor? Should I buy new shoes for the kids or give the money to kids who have no shoes? How much do I spend on the kid who lives with me and how much on the one who lives with my ex? If the answers to those questions are predetermined, please show me where the back of the book is. If you want to discuss ivory-tower theories that my shoe size was determined by the Big bang, I have no interest in that.
... and examine the implications of the answer to that question for the Biblical concept of judgement. I've already touched on that and you didn't respond.
Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
If we assume that the laws of physics are constant and apply universally (which they do) there is only one possible way this universe can turn out. If you boil a pot of water, the molecules will move all over the place. If time is stopped they will be in some arrangement. If you then rewind time, and start the boiling again and then pause it at the same time as before, the atoms will not neccessarily end up in the same arrangement. This is because the molecules move about via a random walk. Not everything in the universe is deterministic.
|
The Agnostic
Member (Idle past 5955 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: 12-17-2007
|
|
|
Message 23 of 106 (442225)
12-20-2007 4:07 PM
|
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
12-20-2007 3:58 PM
|
|
quote:
Then so is the outcome of this discussion, and there would be no point in wasting time on it.
That's a fallacy. Determinism doesn't mean that you cannot do anything, it only means that what you do is outside of your control. Even your decision to not continue this discussion can be traced back to neurons firing and chemicals reacting in your 100 billion brain cells.
quote:
Not at all. Planetary motion is pretty simple. Human behaviour is considerably more complex. There's nothing "arrogant" about thinking that something you can't predict is unpredictable.
Being more complex doesn't grant you immunity from the laws of physics. The same laws of gravity and electromagnetism that keep Pluto in its orbit are the ones that keep your brain running.
quote:
But on a practical level, we do have decisions that we can make and have to make.
I'm not denying that, but it's not relevant to the debate.
quote:
If you want to discuss ivory-tower theories that my shoe size was determined by the Big bang, I have no interest in that.
That was what I wanted to discuss, yes. And for good reason. If my "ivory tower theory" is correct, it has a profound impact on philosophy and religion. If you don't feel like discussing it, I also respect that.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:58 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
Catholic Scientist writes: What if the parents taught the child to be bad? Then he'd have other examples in society. A lot of us know that what our parents taught us was wrong, but we managed to pick up some right anyway. Even a human judge gives some leeway for a person's background. Why would a divine judge do less? It's a question of using the oppurtunities you're given. If you don't understand what the teacher is saying, it's your responsibility to ask questions. It's a parent's responsibility to make sure the teachers are doing their job. It's society's responsibility to make sure the parents are doing their job. In front of a divine judge, the one who failed in his responsibility will get the blame.
Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
The Agnostic writes: If my "ivory tower theory" is correct, it has a profound impact on philosophy and religion. I don't see how it can have any impact on religion at all unless it's about practical decisions. Those are the only ones we're judged on.
Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
|
The Agnostic
Member (Idle past 5955 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: 12-17-2007
|
quote:
If you boil a pot of water, the molecules will move all over the place. If time is stopped they will be in some arrangement. If you then rewind time, and start the boiling again and then pause it at the same time as before, the atoms will not neccessarily end up in the same arrangement. This is because the molecules move about via a random walk. Not everything in the universe is deterministic.
That's about the only concession that I'm willing to make. If at a subatomic level, things behave in a probabilistic way, that would indeed undermine some principles of determinism. However, this would still not prove a free will. Rather than a deterministic will, we will have a probabilistic one. Both, however, are outside of our control. I'd like you folks to see this fragment that illustrates my point perfectly: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=pwBbq8Nrryw
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
If my "ivory tower theory" is correct, it has a profound impact on philosophy and religion. Its been discussed before. There's not going to be any profound impact.
Read this. Your idea is nothing new. People will still be held accountable for their actions.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 4:07 PM | | The Agnostic has not replied |
|
The Agnostic
Member (Idle past 5955 days) Posts: 36 From: Netherlands Joined: 12-17-2007
|
|
|
Message 28 of 106 (442239)
12-20-2007 4:16 PM
|
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
12-20-2007 4:12 PM
|
|
quote:
I don't see how it can have any impact on religion at all unless it's about practical decisions. Those are the only ones we're judged on.
It determines every decision. Even the ones you think you were free to make. I posted a link to illustrate my point.
quote:
Your idea is nothing new. People will still be held accountable for their actions.
In fact, it's not even my idea. More intelligent people than me came up with it before I was even born. I'm just advocating it, based on what I've learned from others. I know that people will be held accountable for their actions. There are all sorts of practical reasons for that. The question is: Will God do it too? Edited by The Agnostic, : New info
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 4:12 PM | | ringo has replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
You shouldn't cross posts like that. Amatuers unlike Ringo and I will get confused. Its better to reply to just one post in each reply, especially when you are replying to a specific post.
quote:
Your idea is nothing new. People will still be held accountable for their actions.
In fact, it's not even my idea. More intelligent people than me came up with it before I was even born. I'm just advocating it, based on what I've learned from others.
I know that. I'm just saying there will not be a profound impact.
Will God do it too? Who the hell knows!?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 4:16 PM | | The Agnostic has not replied |
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
The Agnostic writes: I posted a link to illustrate my point. The video seems to be based on the assumption that God knows nanosecond-by-nanosecond what's going on in your brain. I'll tell you right now, I consider the concepts of "omnipotence" and "omniscience" to be as useless and ivory-tower-based as your concept of physics-based determinism. As I already said, you can think of God's judgement as a debugging process. Whether He knows what's going on in every machine cycle is irrelevant. The judgement is based on the overall performance of the program. If it doesn't produce good results, it gets deleted.
quote:
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
quote:
Every procedure in me that outputeth garbage he taketh away.
Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.
|
™ Version 4.2