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Author Topic:   A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 282 (163892)
11-29-2004 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Whirlwind
11-29-2004 10:44 AM


Re: [Religion Is an] Evolutionary advantage?
Whirlwind writes:
Clash, your faith is a very good example of an evolutionary advantage. The very fact that you take great comfort from your belief at all times makes it very unlikely that you will ever kill yourself. As a consequence, you are more likely to reproduce and keep your genes in the pool.
Well, I'm sure you mean well with such a comment, but...
To say that religion is an evolutionary advantage is patently absurd. {please see My Apology}
First of all, religion is taught, not genetically acquired.
Also, many religions put people at a disadvantage. My own religion does this, if only this life is considered. I could make much more money if I could be dishonest. I could have many more offspring if not for the Biblical restrictions on mating practices. I am unmarried and, therefore, have no offspring.
While I consider evolution to be utterly false and ridiculous, if I did believe it, I wouldn't consider religion to be any part of it. I MIGHT consider that organisms with suicidal tendencies would be selected out (but if suicidal tendencies are genetic and if natural selection is doing its job, why do we currently have people with suicidal tendencies?)
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 04:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Whirlwind, posted 11-29-2004 10:44 AM Whirlwind has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by happy_atheist, posted 11-29-2004 12:59 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 227 of 282 (163898)
11-29-2004 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 11:16 AM


Re: About Comfort
TheLiteralist says,
quote:
The only source of comfort in many cases is the fact that God will judge all men at a future date (Judgement Day).
You mean your faith that God will give everyone what he deserves on Judgment Day.
It's your faith that a judge who (as you yourself admit) often punished the good and rewarded the evil on Earth can be expected to rectify these injustices in the afterlife. What's keeping God from continuing to punish the good even on Judgment Day, with the excuse that He works in mysterious ways?
I submit that the I'll-pay-you-back-after-you-die scam is one of the most objectionable aspects of faith. In this day and age, it's still used to get people to suffer and make others suffer without the slightest reflection or compunction.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 11:16 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 12:34 PM MrHambre has replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 282 (163914)
11-29-2004 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by MrHambre
11-29-2004 11:47 AM


Re: About Comfort
MrHambre,
You say:
You mean your faith that God will give everyone what he deserves on Judgment Day.
Yes. I was describing my faith (beliefs) about God. I do believe Judgement Day will occur.
How do I suffer? By denying my selfish lusts? But were I to give in to my selfish lusts (for instance, by being dishonest), would I not then cause others to suffer?
How has this been used to make others suffer??? Whether or not I decide to obey Jesus's commandments is entirely my decision and can only have a positive effect on those around me.
While walking the earth, Jesus (God) did not once force anyone to follow or obey Him. Indeed, He seeks willing servants. All are free to do as they wish. He merely warns that the consequences for disobedience exist and are extreme compared to anything we experience here. He also indicates that the rewards for obedience are beyond anything we experience here.
I fail to see how Jesus indicating a day is coming when each man will give account to Him for all his actions and be duly rewarded is a scam or can be used to hurt others. Perhaps you have some specific examples you could share.
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 12:35 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by MrHambre, posted 11-29-2004 11:47 AM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by MrHambre, posted 11-29-2004 1:14 PM TheLiteralist has replied

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4914 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 229 of 282 (163921)
11-29-2004 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 11:40 AM


Re: [Religion Is an] Evolutionary advantage?
TheLiteralist writes:
Also, many religions put people at a disadvantage. My own religion does this, if only this life is considered. I could make much more money if I could be dishonest.
I actually disagree. Humans in general live in and fully depend of society. As individuals we're pretty weak and vulnerable. We require a level of integrity to keep the society working. While true that you may be able to make a gain if you and you alone were dishonest, quite the opposite would be true if everyone was dishonest. You would then lose out as an every-man-for-himself state would be produced.
I don't think religion is necessary for this level of cohesion to exist, but I think it would certainly help to unite people to a common purpose, or at least a common set of values. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if some people have a genetic predisposition to be religious.
TheLiteralist writes:
I could have many more offspring if not for the Biblical restrictions on mating practices. I am unmarried and, therefore, have no offspring.
Well it's true that rapid procreation involving many offspring is one way to ensure survival of the species, but it's not the only way. Nurturing a few offspring but with a high success rate is another. This is too far off topic to continue here though...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 11:40 AM TheLiteralist has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 230 of 282 (163922)
11-29-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 12:34 PM


Re: About Comfort
TheLiteralist,
quote:
He seeks willing servants. All are free to do as they wish. He merely warns that the consequences for disobedience exist and are extreme compared to anything we experience here. He also indicates that the rewards for obedience are beyond anything we experience here.
Thus making it clear that the only reason you have for "denying your selfish lusts" in the first place is your selfish lust for a pie-party in the great Beyond. Is Jesus afraid he wouldn't get many willing followers if he didn't promise a sweet payback for their obedience, or warn them that they'd be helltoast if their faith should falter?
quote:
I fail to see how Jesus indicating a day is coming when each man will give account to Him for all his actions and be duly rewarded is a scam or can be used to hurt others.
No need to be disingenuous. I feel justified in noting that the evidence for the existence of an afterlife is lacking. However, there is abundant support for my claim that plenty of violence and terror both in history and in our time have been inspired and excused through religion and faith in the afterlife's bountiful rewards. Perhaps you could rationalize the 9-11 hijackings as being motivated by fanatics of someone else's religion. However, your Bible contains wonderful passages wherein the Israelites are instructed to massacre the Canaanites, and Abraham is instructed to murder his son Isaac, for no other reason than God wanted it so.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 12:34 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 8:32 PM MrHambre has replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 282 (163968)
11-29-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Whirlwind
11-29-2004 10:44 AM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
Whirlwind,
In my first response to your assertion that religious faith is a good example of an evolutionary advantage, I say:
To say that religion is an evolutionary advantage is patently absurd.
Well, I'm afraid I am guilty of being condescending (and a bit mean) with that statement, which you would likely find either rude or discouraging. Sorry about that.
Better word choice would have been:
"I do not consider religion to be a good example of evolutionary advantage."
I see you've made only 3 posts. So, you're a newbie here as I am.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Whirlwind, posted 11-29-2004 10:44 AM Whirlwind has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2004 4:35 PM TheLiteralist has replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 282 (163969)
11-29-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Whirlwind
11-29-2004 10:44 AM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
Oops! Double post.
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 04:22 PM

I Interpret Genesis literally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Whirlwind, posted 11-29-2004 10:44 AM Whirlwind has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 233 of 282 (163971)
11-29-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 4:20 PM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
I agree with you that the reason giving (suicide prevention) isn't a particulary convincing argument in favour of religion being an evolutionary advantage.
In fact, while it might be a bit strong, I'd say "patently absurd" wasn't too far off the mark.
Howver, that doesn't mean that I agree that religion doesn't have an evolutionary advantage.
One reason is that an atheist would use is the prevalence of it. It seems to be so prevalent as to be "in-grained". Not very convincing and interpretation to a believer of course .
The other reason is that there are some interesting (but only speculative) ideas about social advantages of religions. I'd say the question is open.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 4:20 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 5:36 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 244 by Whirlwind, posted 11-30-2004 7:25 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 234 of 282 (163975)
11-29-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by NosyNed
11-29-2004 4:35 PM


Re: Evolutionary advantage
Open, perhaps, but not very stimulating to me (not at this time, at least)
Of course, believing the Bible to be true, I think that the desire to seek God is a spiritually-directed (as opposed to a DNA, or physically, directed process).
Ecclesiates 3:11
He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
But I cannot emphatically state that the DNA isn't used to some extent for this. Of course, I believe God created DNA (wrote the human program, if you will ~ see note below); so, either way the desire to seek God, imo, would be from God Himself. It is a bit interesting to me that, in my conversations with people, they usually begin considering God in a serious manner around the age 12 (give or take a year or two).
Now, IF there is NO Creator, then it seems unlikely to me that there should be ANY desire to seek God.
To ascribe genetic propensity to something like religion (which has no counter-part I know of in the rest of the animal kingdom ~ with whom we supposedly share a common ancestor) seems counter-intuitive to me.
I've only been here about two days, and already I have plenty of reading to do about topics that DO interest me.
Whirlwind's post was not unfriendly and didn't deserve an unfriendly reply, thus, my apology (of course, I hope to remain friendly even if I receive unfriendly responses to my arguments or assertions). I probably should not even have responded at all since I don't find the particular subject personally interesting. lol
I suppose some of us newbies, and we literalists in particular, I imagine, respond to everything at first. I have a propensity (is it genetic? lol) to do that anyway, regardless of the subject.
*NOTE BELOW (Yes, that's a little joke)*
I believe that God also wrote the frog program, the snake program, the worm program, the whale program, etc. using the cool programming language known as DNA. Now if this little note makes you just want to post...please go to this thread, which is more related to the subject: http://EvC Forum: Evolution of complexity/information.
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 08:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2004 4:35 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 282 (163990)
11-29-2004 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by MrHambre
11-29-2004 1:14 PM


Re: About Comfort
MrHambre writes:
Thus making it clear that the only reason you have for "denying your selfish lusts" in the first place is your selfish lust for a pie-party in the great Beyond. Is Jesus afraid he wouldn't get many willing followers if he didn't promise a sweet payback for their obedience, or warn them that they'd be helltoast if their faith should falter?
Actually, in my life, the fear of hell has been the greater cause for my desire to obey Him. What about the Biblical heaven inspires lust? Beautiful surroundings, lack of sorrow, lack of evil: all wonderful things but none seem lust-inspiring.
Jesus doesn‘t seem to be one to use enticements to get followers (but what is wrong with a Creator rewarding/punishing creations that please/displease Him, especially after having warned them?). Consider Jesus’s response when many decide not to follow Him any longer:
John 6
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. ~ KJV (emphasis in verse 67 is mine)
If the God of the Bible IS real and He really IS going to have a Judgement Day, then I‘m glad for the warning. It is clear that it is up to the individual whether or not to heed this warning.
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 11-29-2004 08:50 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by MrHambre, posted 11-29-2004 1:14 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by MrHambre, posted 11-30-2004 8:26 AM TheLiteralist has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 236 of 282 (163994)
11-29-2004 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 10:48 AM


Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
quote:
It was comments, such as this one by Scrafinator, that prompted my posting at all on the subject that the existence of matter demonstrates clearly that there is a Creator.
How so?
quote:
That there is a Creator is abundantly clear,
How so?
quote:
and true science has only implied it more and more as it has investigated the tremendous complexity within us and about us.
Why is complexity a sign of the supernatural?
(I will look for you in an ID thread.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 10:48 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 8:56 PM nator has not replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 282 (163995)
11-29-2004 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by nator
11-29-2004 8:51 PM


Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
Hi Schrafinator,
You may find me in this ID thread:
http://EvC Forum: Evolution of complexity/information -->EvC Forum: Evolution of complexity/information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 8:51 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 238 of 282 (163996)
11-29-2004 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 11:16 AM


Re: About Comfort
quote:
I was miraculously and instantly healed of a fractured hip joint, for instance)
Really? That's amazing!
Is there a medical article published in JAMA or Science or some other professional publication which documents this incredible incident?
Do you have before and after radiographs?
What was the name of the hospital and doctor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 11:16 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 9:18 PM nator has replied

  
TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 282 (163997)
11-29-2004 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by nator
11-29-2004 8:56 PM


Re: About Comfort
It IS amazing.
No. No proofs exist that you will find satisfactory. I can get the name of the doctor involved, though. But, if he is still alive and can remember the event, I'm certain he would, at most, consider it a misdiagnosis before an x-ray.
I was 4. My mom and dad had just gotten involved in an Apostolic Pentecostal church that teaches that Jesus can and does still heal. At a family reunion I was hurt myself playing king-of-the-mountain. I don't recall noticing it at the reunion, but by the time we got home I do remember having pain in my leg ~ nothing unbearable as I recall. The next day mom took me to our family doctor. He had me walk around. My left foot pointed toward my right leg, and my right leg seemed a bit shorter than the left one. The doctor said it LOOKED like a fractured hip joint based on how the leg was bent, apparently. Of course x-rays were in order.
Due to construction at that clinic, mom had to take me to a different hospital for x-rays. Before the x-rays, mom called dad (who wispered a prayer for me while at work) and mom bawled and prayed out loud in front of everybody in the waiting room (I think). She also promised God, that IF he would heal my leg she would visit elderly in convalescent homes. The x-ray came up okay, and my leg was fine.
I leave open the possibility that the leg was NOT actually fractured, but it WAS severely twisted and shorter than the other and in some amount of pain BEFORE visiting the doctor. It was fine AFTER visiting the doctor. All the doctor did was examine me and have me x-rayed.
Mom went straight to a convalescent center. She asked the attendant if anyone wanted the Bible read to them. She was taken to an old lady named Anna Barnes. Upon seeing my mom, Anna Barnes asked her, "Honey, are you Pentecostal?" My mom was and was surprised at Sister Barnes's question.
Turns out Anna Barnes was also Apostolic Pentecostal, had been in that home for many years (20+ I think), and had been praying to hear Pentecostal music one more time before she died. Mom arranged for the local church to do a singing at the convalescent home. Sister Barnes (and all other elderly who wanted, and they did) were rolled out (Sister Barnes was bed-ridden) to see the singing.
The next week mom was unable to visit Sister Barnes due to a flu outbreak at the convalescent home. The following week the home allowed visitors again, but Sister Barnes had died during the flu outbreak.
Believe it or not, as you please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 8:56 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 9:39 PM TheLiteralist has replied
 Message 241 by nator, posted 11-29-2004 9:50 PM TheLiteralist has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 240 of 282 (164001)
11-29-2004 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by TheLiteralist
11-29-2004 9:18 PM


Re: About Comfort
quote:
I leave open the possibility that the leg was NOT actually fractured, but it WAS severely twisted and shorter than the other and in some amount of pain BEFORE visiting the doctor. It was fine AFTER visiting the doctor. All the doctor did was examine me and have me x-rayed.
If your hip was broken you would have not been able to walk at all and you would have been in severe, throbbing pain immediately upon it happening.
I suspect that your hip was dislocated to some extent and the manipulation the joint got while you walked around or while your leg was manipulated by the x-ray technitian or the doctor put it back into place.
One leg shorter than the other is a dead giveaway.
I know I can't prove my story is the correct version of events, but it is certainly consistent with your described symptoms and doesn't require any supernatural intervention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 9:18 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by TheLiteralist, posted 11-29-2004 10:01 PM nator has not replied

  
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