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Author
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Topic: A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)
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TheClashFan
Inactive Member
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Message 196 of 282 (163550)
11-27-2004 5:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 195 by nator
11-27-2004 5:24 PM
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Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
If He was known to mankind, wouldn't everyone belive in Him because we knew that He was real? How many people would fear Him and love Him half heartedly? And don't tell me that someone would still choose not to love Him is we knew He was real, because who wants to spend eternity in hell? Who wants to be damned?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 195 by nator, posted 11-27-2004 5:24 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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quote:
Hmm, you'd think someone would have heard such a great number on T.V or on the radio...I know I haven't...
When I did a Google search on "Iraqi civilian deaths 100,000" I got 128,000 hits. This is common knowledge unless you are watching Fox News.
ABC.net.au: Page Not Found Last Update: Friday, October 29, 2004. 7:10am (AEST) Iraqi civilian deaths put at 100,000 Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in violence since the US-led invasion last year, according to public health experts who estimate there were 100,000 "excess deaths" in 18 months. The US-based researchers found that the risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher than before the war. The rise in the death rate was mainly due to violence and much of it was caused by US air strikes on towns and cities, they said. "Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100,000 excess deaths or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq," said Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in a report published online by The Lancet medical journal. "The use of air power in areas with lots of civilians appears to be killing a lot of women and children," Mr Roberts said. The report comes just days before the US presidential election in which the Iraq war has been a major issue. Mortality was already high in Iraq before the war because of United Nations sanctions blocking food and medical imports. But the researchers described their findings after the war as shocking. quote:
Humans, to my way of thinking, start out with some silly little idea like "I want to kill him because he made fun of me". Demons can take these small ideas and turn them into "I want to kill every person in the world because they all make fun of me."
Why can't humans do this without demons?
quote:
from that homocidal thought comes planning. Demons take advantage of people, thought it doesn't at all excuse the person's actions. I don not belive that it is in the human nature to commit such terrible things, but it is in the nature of sin.
Why isn't in human nature to do these things? Humans have waged war on each other for millenia. Wars invole the killing, by individual soldiers, of many hundrede and maybe thousands, of other individual human beings. Demons have nothing at all to do with any of it. Humans are responsible. If we just make "demons" responsible, then we can never hope to understand the violent sde of human nature. Tell me, do you believe mental illness has natural causes or are people posessed by demons?
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
quote:
If He was known to mankind, wouldn't everyone belive in Him because we knew that He was real?
Sure, but just because we would all believe in him wouldn't neccessarily mean that we would love him and want to follow him. I've read the Bible. God is pretty cruel and unjust in a lot of it.
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How many people would fear Him and love Him half heartedly?
I don't know.
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And don't tell me that someone would still choose not to love Him is we knew He was real, because who wants to spend eternity in hell? Who wants to be damned?
Well, that's fear, not love. Just because God would be shown to be real doesn't mean he deserves to be loved and glorified.
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TheClashFan
Inactive Member
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Message 199 of 282 (163553)
11-27-2004 5:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 197 by nator
11-27-2004 5:35 PM
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Some war is necessary. Again I state: HUMANS ARE STILL TO BLAME, DEMONS ARE MERELY THE CAUSE! To my thinking, of course. I cannot prove that this is how it is. I belive in demons because I have seen them, and I have known their persuasion. As for the Iraqi Casualties, what news station did you get the article? I am assuming ABC. And how can you be sure that all of them were innocent? How many times have we seen children and women fighting in wars? If I recall, correctly, they are still being used in the Palestine-Israel war. Also remember that the president does not position the armies or set up attacks.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 197 by nator, posted 11-27-2004 5:35 PM | | nator has replied |
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TheClashFan
Inactive Member
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Message 200 of 282 (163554)
11-27-2004 5:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 198 by nator
11-27-2004 5:41 PM
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Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
Bad wording with the first quote, please excuse me. As for your last statement, fear sways many beliefs. I think that if we knew of God's existance, many would choose to love him, or at least play at it out of fear of going to hell. It seems to me that that isn't how or why He wants us to love him. In the Old Testement, God did seem cruel, but I can see His reasons sometimes. If I was in His place, and my people began to worship idol and do things that they knew were wrong, I'd be pretty pissed off.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 198 by nator, posted 11-27-2004 5:41 PM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: Clash Fans thread synopsis
quote:
Very well. My mum is going to read it first, however, and see if it's something I would be able to read.
Judging by your writing ability and comprehension, I don't think it would be over your head at all. I would be very curious if she lets you read it or not. It will say a lot about how fearful your parents are of science. It very gently challenges religious faith, but mostly it explores and explains how to think critically.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
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Actuaully, there are twelve on hell, and twenty two on the devil, not counting demons, judgement, and punishment. I do not speak of demons and the devil without personal experiance and hearing the experiances of my elders dealing with them. It is some what easy to see the devil and his work throughout the world.
It is a fact that, historically, it is only in relatively modern times that the Devil and Hell have been prominent in Christianity. It is also true that fear of hell and the Devil is a very effective tool to keep people in line. Fear of Gay people getting married and fear of terroism is what Bush used to get re-elected. Fear is very effective at getting people to do what you want, and that's why many religions use it. That's why they tell you about demons, too.
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Demon Haunted World
I second what Schraf was being so gentle about. The book is not in anyway x rated, violent, degrading anyone or any other reason why I could think that should suggest a minor shouldn't read it. If there is any hint that ideas are the real problem then I'm not able to be so gentle. Such a thought would be appalling and ultimately self defeating. Tell me that isn't the nature of the issue.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 204 by nator, posted 11-27-2004 8:52 PM | | NosyNed has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 204 of 282 (163582)
11-27-2004 8:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 203 by NosyNed
11-27-2004 8:47 PM
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Re: Demon Haunted World
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If there is any hint that ideas are the real problem then I'm not able to be so gentle. Such a thought would be appalling and ultimately self defeating. Tell me that isn't the nature of the issue.
Hey, here we are again; I'm the good cop and you're the bad cop! Role reveral is so fun! 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 203 by NosyNed, posted 11-27-2004 8:47 PM | | NosyNed has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 206 by NosyNed, posted 11-27-2004 8:58 PM | | nator has replied |
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happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 4935 days) Posts: 326 Joined: 08-21-2004
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Re: Any omnipotent being allows evil to exsit
TheClashFan writes: If He was known to mankind, wouldn't everyone belive in Him because we knew that He was real? How many people would fear Him and love Him half heartedly? And don't tell me that someone would still choose not to love Him is we knew He was real, because who wants to spend eternity in hell? Who wants to be damned? I fail to see how you can properly love a being that you don't know exists. If a god exists and wants to be loved, it is in it's interests to make sure everyone knows of it's existence so that they are able to love it. If people don't know of it's existence then they will never love it in a meaningful way. As for people loving god purely out of fear of hell, that is something that happens now! In fact that position is formalised with Pascals Wager, so people not knowing about god doesn't stop them faking belief and love out of fear of hell. At least if everyone had solid evidence that the god existed they would be able to make an informed decision on what stance they wanted to take. And as Scraf pointed out, there is a big difference between people knowing of gods existence and actually supporting and loving that god. This message has been edited by happy_atheist, 11-27-2004 08:59 PM
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NosyNed
Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined: 04-04-2003
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Message 206 of 282 (163587)
11-27-2004 8:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 204 by nator
11-27-2004 8:52 PM
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Role Reversal
Oh Schraf! You want to role play with me do you? he he he
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 204 by nator, posted 11-27-2004 8:52 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 208 by nator, posted 11-27-2004 9:14 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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quote:
Some war is necessary.
Yes, I agree, although the Iraq war was the opposite of necessary. However, the necessity of certain wars is not what we're discussing. We were discussing the reasons people kill other people and why demons are always responsible, according to you.
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Again I state: HUMANS ARE STILL TO BLAME, DEMONS ARE MERELY THE CAUSE!
Why can't humans be the cause without demons? I've asked this question before.
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To my thinking, of course. I cannot prove that this is how it is. I belive in demons because I have seen them, and I have known their persuasion.
Again, you sound like you have time-traveled in from the Dark Ages in Medieval Europe. Do you see fairies and pixies, too? I honestly don't mean that last question in a snotty way, I just want to know.
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As for the Iraqi Casualties, what news station did you get the article? I am assuming ABC.
Yes.
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And how can you be sure that all of them were innocent?
Did you read the article I gave you the link for? They are primarily counting women and children among the civilians.
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How many times have we seen children and women fighting in wars?
In the middle east? Where women have few rights? Hardly ever.
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If I recall, correctly, they are still being used in the Palestine-Israel war.
If you are referring to the manditory military service all Israeli men and women do, I hardly think that this is a proper comparison. There have been a few Palestinian female suicide bombers, but it is very rare.
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Also remember that the president does not position the armies or set up attacks.
The President is Commander in Chief of our armed forces. He is responsible for the prosecution of the war. The buck stops with him. Let me be clear. Even if the Iraqi casualties were grossly overstated and were only 10% of 100,000, that is still many more innocent people killed than all the people murdered by sociopathic serial killers, ever.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 208 of 282 (163598)
11-27-2004 9:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 206 by NosyNed
11-27-2004 8:58 PM
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Re: Role Reversal
Only if I can continue to play the bad cop. 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 206 by NosyNed, posted 11-27-2004 8:58 PM | | NosyNed has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 209 of 282 (163602)
11-27-2004 9:23 PM
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Hey ClashFan. I am still really interested to know if you think that what we call mental illness today is actually demonic posession. What do you think? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-27-2004 09:24 PM
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TheLiteralist
Inactive Member
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Message 210 of 282 (163646)
11-28-2004 4:42 AM
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ClashFan, First of all: Hello! I admire your willingness to put your beliefs out for examination, especially considering your age. The evidence for the existence of God, of course, is the existence of matter and, especially, life ~ so, that includes all things we can see or experience. All of matter, from the delicate inner workings of a hydrogen atom to the delicate movements of stars in a galaxy or of planets in a solar system, is highly complex and ordered. In particular, the existence of DNA is, in my mind, a profound evidence that a Creator exists. As DNA is a CODE, similar in some ways to computer codes, but which is far more complex, in process, function and results. Morse Code was invented by Mr. Morse, and the genetic code that eventually produced Mr. Morse (Human DNA) was invented by life's Creator. The Bible says itself that all matter proves the existence of God. Romans 1:20 says, quote:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse ~ NIV
Psalm 19:1 says, quote:
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork
But your original topic was "How can people survive without believing in God?" Well, I don't know because I have believed in God most of my life (so, I can't relate), but that is not the same thing as surviving without God. The Bible states in Acts 17:28, quote:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being ~ KJV
Finally, God did create good and evil. The Bible is clear about that as one atheist (I think) has already pointed out. Jesus also made it clear that hell is a fine reason to decide to do what He says. Consider Jesus's words in Matthew 10:28: quote:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ~ KJV
Nor has the God of the Bible ever indicated that He is using any of the various human concepts of justice to run His world.
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