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Author | Topic: Will The Real God Please Stand Up? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This started with you saying that Phat is only a CHristian because he was raised in a Christian society, but that utterly ignored the point that Phat's belief is a lot deeper than any cultural Christian and the comparison is false. If being raised in a Christian culture made you a Christian that defends Christianity the way I do or Phat or any of those who SAY they are Christians, then there would be no point whatever in our claiming to be Christians.
I assure you that before I became a believer I did not think of myself as a Christian, I thought of myself as an atheist, I customarily checked "none" when forms inquired as to my religion.; I didn't think of my parents as Christians either, and I didn't think of American society as Christian. When I first believed in God I really did think I would go with one of the eastern religions because that's what many of my friends were doing -- a bunch of nice Americans raised in a Christian society by Christian parents. They were followers of Hindu gurus or Buddhists or some New Age "entity" or whatnot. I didn't know a single Christian. And when I did start leaning toward Christianity my friends were horrified and a few tried to talk me out of it and one gave me a book about Gnosticism to give me what he thought was a more desirable alternative, I had to be PERSUADED by reading a LOT of books about religion over at least two years before I began to think of myself as Christian. Don't tell me I was already a Christian.; I was not. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Correct. Had he been born in a remote village in the Atlas mountains he would not be a Christian. Can you find ny fault at all with that logic?
It doesn't matter how deep his belief is, he only has it because he was born where he was born and to whom he was born. You have not yet addressed this point. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Even if statistically you are right, what you conclude based on that statistic is false, which is that it proves there is nothing special about Christianity, it is just another man-made religion. I've given enough information about how different Christianity is to show that you can't lump all religions together on such a basis, it's fallacious reasoning.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 839 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
It does not mean the child was born of Christian parents. The USA used to be a country that was saturated in Christian influenced culture. There are many people who hold no religious beliefs at all but are not against the practice of Christianity. The reason they would not send their kids to a Jewish or Muslim church is because the USA is neither a Muslim or Jewish nation, or at least was thought of that way in the past. America was synonymous with Christian culture. The thinking was that only Arabs send their kids to Muslim church and the Jewish church was exclusively for the Jewish ethnic group and both were thought to be foreign to the American way.
If you sent your kid to a Christian Church, it was for morality and you don't get your morality from unamerican cultures. I'm just saying that was the thinking. It certainly was not exclusively for wanting your kids to believe a faith you had. There are people who like a culture that was born in Christian influence but do not believe in the Christian God or any God.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
How is it possible to be wrong? If it's true that where you are born and who you are born to almost exclusively determines which god you believe in, where is the error? Every religious belief works the same way. You think there's something special about the particular version of a particular religion. I say that every believer in every religion thinks exactly the same. The only thing special about what you believe Faith is that it is more than usually bonkers. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Well this is a muddle isn't it? To stress the point, if a child is born to Muslim parents in remote Uzbekistan, what god do you think he'll believe in? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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jar Member Posts: 33957 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.0 |
But you are making the same error Tangle is.
Yes, a local culture determines to a great degree what position members of that culture adopt. BUT the fact is that today many religions are not exclusive and do not hold the position that any one religion is the only true religion. This has been true of many religions for near forever and is gradually becoming more prominent in Christianity. Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism have always recognized other religions as valid; as different paths. Islam traditionally recognized that Jews, Christians and Muslims worshiped the same God based on the "Book". Many chapters of Club Christian today agree that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same God. And there are families that do encourage their children to explore other faiths; mine being but one example. Finally, with a few exceptions religions do have a process to accept new members or conversions.
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Phat Member Posts: 16107 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
This discussion is quite interesting, jar. You and I and Faith and others here at EvC often discuss the Gods we market ad nauseum. You frame the issue by correctly pointing out how there are many different portrayals of the "God of the Bible" yet you never interject your personal idea of God into the discussion at all---which is why we other club members often cannot understand how you can be so dispassionate and yet claim club membership.
Before I go on, read this commentary by a *gasp* apologist from Columbia University:
Basically this author does not differentiate the God of the Bible into many facets as you do...probably due to the a priori belief that Jesus unifies any discrepancies of said Deity. There may be many "Gods of the Bible" but can we say the same about Jesus? Is there more than one Jesus and if so, what does this mean for Club Christian? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)
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Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
Thank you.
This is not true on average. What is true is that the increase ease of people movement means that more people are exposed to more cultures and beliefs. Mostly in the last hundred years or so and only in the wealthier parts. Prior to that it was usual for people never to leave their village and the village would be a mono-culture. In the West in particular, religious belief has thankfully liberalised but this is not normal, in many parts of the world many religions still literally fight over their beliefs and partition their societies based on it. Even modern European countries like Northern Island and Yugoslavia. Where you are born and the parents you are born to are the overwhelming determinants of what you believe yourself. There's no avoiding that point. It blows a hole three feet wide into any claim that your belief is the 'true belief' - your belief is a chance of birth. Even if your belief is the liberal one of accept all religions. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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jar Member Posts: 33957 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.0 |
But that is a claim I have never made; rather my belief is te belief I hold. And as I pointed out there are many, likely the majority of religions, that do not hold a belief that they have the "true God". This is even seen in the Old Testament where Yahweh is "The Lord, THY God". Edited by jar, : fix quote box Edited by jar, : applin spallin
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Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0
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I was speaking of 'you' in general, not you in particular.
And I would say that you have that particular belief because you were born at the time that it was allowable, in a society that has developed to become liberal and diverse and to parents who had similar values and beliefs. Had you been born 500 years ago or 10 years ago in Afghanistan to Muslim parents you are highly unlikely to believe what you believe now. I'm not restricting this the religious believers, I certainly would not have been an atheist 500 years ago either. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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jar Member Posts: 33957 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 2.0 |
Again, you are ignoring all the vast body that refutes your position, of watching normal Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus of India 100-200 years ago that stopped and prayed at every shrine along the Grand Trunk regardless of what God or Religion the shrine was dedicated to. You are ignoring the Taoist traditions that redily adopted and recognized most any religion; of the Native American "powwows" where different tribes gathered and told their own tales of religion and origins and the other nations paying attention and saying "that's interesting"; of the modern Ecumenical Movement, of the Romanization of the Greek religions as well as the Christian practice of adopting and re-purposing most any celebration from Christmas to Easter to Passover to Pentecost.
Religions have never been monolithic and have all evolved and changed over time.
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ringo Member Posts: 19784 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 2.8 |
There was. At least, there were any number of itinerant preachers in Judea 2000 years ago. The Jesus character in the Bible is most likely based on an amalgamation of them.
Nothing at all, unless they pay attention to reality, which most of them don't. There is little connection between the "Jesus" of many Christian beliefs and the Jesus character in the Bible, which lends support to the idea that the religious aspects of "Jesus" are made up. Edited by ringo, : "None" --> "Nothing" And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The fact that statistically speaking people tend to identify with the religion of the culture they were born in SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about which religion is true, certainly doesn't preclude one of them being true.
And I chose Christianity not because I was born in a Christian culture, which ought to be clear from what I keep saying about that, but BECAUSE ALL THE READING I WAS DOING ABOUT RELIGION CONVINCED ME IT IS THE TRUTH. TRUTH. TRUE TRUTH. TRUTHY TRUTH. I did NOT chose it because I liked it because there was a lot about it I didn't like at all at first. But its truth credentials did the job of convincing me that I had to yield my own freelings because it's TRUE.
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Tangle Member Posts: 8580 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
As I keep saying, it tells you that the belief you have was a throw of the dice. If the belief you hold by chance happens to be the 'truth', then you simply got lucky. If Islam is the 'truth', then you lucked out didn't you?
It's just a fluke then that your parents were Christians living in a Christian society and you were brought up a Christian. You think that has no relevance at all? Do you also think that you'd be a Christian if you'd been born in North Africa? Even funnier, had you been born in Italy you'd like as not be a Catholic. Your 'choice' of religion is only possible because you were born in recent times in a modern, diverse, democratic country that enables such choices. In a different time in a different place that choice would not exist nor would you even think of it. What you believe is determined by almost everything but your own choice - it's highly predictable. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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