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Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1 of 364 (378886)
01-22-2007 10:06 AM


I want to start a semi humorous, semi serious discussion about the nature of God. Pretend that we hav a sort of a roundtable Town Meeting Group. There are four God candidates present. each one seeks to be recognized as God, Omnipotant Creator of all things.
at the table we have:
1) Jesus Christ, who is representing His Father.
2) Loki, the Trickster.
3) Sophia- the source of Wisdom.
4) The Flying Spaghetti Monster
We open this town meeting up by asking questions and allowing the candidates to answer, based on the words that we give them.(since this is a Forum of ideas, and since each answer should be consistent with the character that is commonly ascribed to these candidates.
For example, I could have Jesus say that He reads the Tao, but I would have to show a scriptural reference that would supposedly back up this assertion. Otherwise I may as well ask Sophia. I could quote the Tao in context and have a scripture that backed up the Tao quote, however!
Faith/Belief

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 364 (378904)
01-22-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-22-2007 10:06 AM


Can I tell the truth, Jesus?
The meeting begins and I get to ask the first question. I approach Loki.
where are the references that show your credentials, oh trickster? I laugh and walk away. The same thing happens with the Spaghetti Monster, itself an urban legend. Sophia proves more elusive, as she seems to be connected to lots of mythology as well as Gnostic Church beliefs. I will need to study human wisdom in order to see her wisdom emerge.
Gnosticism is no threat to my beliefs, however...and so I move on to Jesus.
What do you suppose happens next?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 30 of 364 (379156)
01-23-2007 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Archer Opteryx
01-22-2007 1:16 PM


Re: for the record
Archer writes:
Seniority: support for Sophia's divine attributes and 'firstborn' status existed for centuries before Jesus was born.
Consensus: the Hebrew text supporting Sophia's status is regarded as authoritative by more people than the Greek Gospel narratives--and this, before we even begin to consider the texts honoring Sophia that exist outside Jewish culture.
OK...noted in minutes. But I wanted to present the evidence in John 1 as well.
NIV writes:
John 1:1-5
:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
I submit that the darkness of human reasoning cannot fathom the light as defined by Johns author. Before anyone hollars copout! I want the record to show this passage in a more modern transliteration:
The Message writes:
John 1
The Life-Light
1-2 The Word was first,
the Word present to God,
God present to the Word.
The Word was God,
in readiness for God from day one.
Everything was created through him;
nothing”not one thing!”
came into being without him.
What came into existence was Life,
and the Life was Light to live by.
The Life-Light blazed out of the darkness;
the darkness couldn't put it out.
Let the record state that the gender is a "he" and that Sophia is a "she"....
I dunno what the Spaghetti Monster is, but it sure tastes good! Some Communion!
I submit that Jesus is mentioned in the top bestselling book and that the other candidates are not...except Sophia. Does anyone know much about her?
Edited by Phat, : changed
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 31 of 364 (379157)
01-23-2007 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Doddy
01-22-2007 6:56 PM


Re: Why Loki?
Doddy writes:
Why did you choose Loki, who isn't even a god (and only gets mentioned as one because he kept hanging with his brother, Odin), as the representative? That's sort of like getting the angel Gabriel to represent Christianity.
Let the record show that the Jehovahs Witnesses do in fact assert that Gabriel represents Jesus.
I'll plead ignorance, however...because I never knew that Odin was senior partner to Loki.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 32 of 364 (379158)
01-23-2007 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Archer Opteryx
01-22-2007 2:47 PM


Re: deity on video
Archer writes:
No doubt some modern cynic will suggest the disciples faked the evidence.
That just goes to show you, though, doesn't it? Motive is everything. It all depends on whether you have a heart willing to believe.
Let the record show that Jesus has no problems with wisdom. Sophia is thus allowed to stay at the table.
The A.C.L.U. Lawyer stands up. "We object to the chairman showing favoritism to Jesus, and ask that a new chairman be appointed."
Jesus is unwilling that the A.C.L.J. and Dr.Dobson be allowed to counter the A.C.L.U. and the meeting resumes...with everyone acting as co-chairman! The fundamentalists stomp out of the meeting!
Let the record also show that Jesus also appears on video, although the fact that He is at this meeting shows that the bus clearly did not take Him out!
Edited by Phat, : add link

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 60 of 364 (379422)
01-24-2007 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by anastasia
01-23-2007 11:50 PM


Re: Why Loki?
Ooops! I knew that!

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 66 of 364 (379429)
01-24-2007 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Greatest I am
01-24-2007 1:45 AM


Re: I am late but I am here if you chose to have faith
Let the record show that another fundie has barged into this meeting and declared himself a prophet. We will test your spirit by requesting that you go buy lunch for all of us.
Or we could all just carve up the Spaghetti Monster and have communion.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 71 of 364 (379507)
01-24-2007 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Quetzal
01-24-2007 11:16 AM


Re: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva
I think of the Mysterious Stranger by Mark Twain.
Twain writes:
"Don't cry," Satan said; "they were of no value."
"But they are gone to hell!"
"Oh, it is no matter; we can make plenty more." ....It was of no use to try to move him; evidently he was wholly without feeling, and could not understand.
Psalm 102:3
3 For my days vanish like smoke;
my bones burn like glowing embers.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 77 of 364 (379698)
01-25-2007 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Greatest I am
01-24-2007 1:45 AM


Re: I am late but I am here if you chose to have faith
Greatest I am writes:
The Holy Spirit is passive until you find it within yourself.
Is this Spirit an it, a He, or a She?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 86 of 364 (379768)
01-25-2007 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Rob
01-25-2007 9:46 AM


Re: Can I tell the truth, Jesus?
Rob writes:
I am not God. But I am in Him. I am just a light. A mirror (though a broken one I admit). A staff in His hand. A servant. A poor and lowly disciple of Christ. A despised lamp among men. A threatening turncoat. One who has abandoned humanity for God. I am salt, that spices up the muddyness of the lost. I am only trying to get your attention to point you to the one who you can trust... Ask Him...
Now let me get all of this straight. You are here at the town meeting representing God as you understand Him, am I right?
  • On the one hand you declare yourself to be a broken mirror. This means that you acknowledge that you cannot reflect the Light in its pure form as you understand it. Yet you won't sit down and be humble like the rest of us who are seeking a consensus and an agreement.
  • On the other hand, you declare in essence that it is not you who are the teacher..the Prophet..or the bearer of Truth. It is Christ in you. Am I right again? *Phat turns to Jesus, who nods and tells him to continue....*
    Allow me then to give you one scripture to chew on while our meeting continues.
    NIV writes:
    Phil 2:3- Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
    In THe Message transliteration it reads:
    1-4If you've gotten anything at all out of following Christ, if his love has made any difference in your life, if being in a community of the Spirit means anything to you, if you have a heart, if you care” then do me a favor: Agree with each other, love each other, be deep-spirited friends. Don't push your way to the front; don't sweet-talk your way to the top. Put yourself aside, and help others get ahead. Don't be obsessed with getting your own advantage. Forget yourselves long enough to lend a helping hand.
    Sometimes, sitting quietly and listening to others is a better testimony of Christ in you than standing on the table and attempting to correct everyone!

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 79 by Rob, posted 01-25-2007 9:46 AM Rob has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18456
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 87 of 364 (379780)
    01-25-2007 1:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 84 by kuresu
    01-25-2007 11:15 AM


    Re: Can I tell the truth, Jesus?
    kuresu writes:
    that's what Christ is doing for you! He's the mother/father saying "boys will be boys".
    I never get off the hook.
    The scrip that popped into my head was
    NIV writes:
    Proverbs 3:12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father [a] the son he delights in.
    I would imagine that IF God exists, He delights in everyone and not just those of us who believe that we know Him.
    Now....may this town meeting continue? I see that Sophia is pacing back and forth and The spaghetti monster looks a bit pasty faced.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 84 by kuresu, posted 01-25-2007 11:15 AM kuresu has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18456
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 100 of 364 (379978)
    01-26-2007 12:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 89 by kuresu
    01-25-2007 2:02 PM


    Meeting adjourned until further notice?
    kuresu writes:
    I'm actually going to move for a temporary adjournment of the meeting--the time we come back shall be decided after this movement passes.
    I can't close it as AdminPhat because it would be a conflict of interest. Another Admin may elect to close this topic for at least 3 days.
    Allow me to broaden the O.P. Any God is eligible for consideration.
    To qualify, the deity needs to have been mentioned by five other independent sources apart from the member nominating said Deity.

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18456
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 109 of 364 (380014)
    01-26-2007 4:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by Rob
    01-23-2007 11:40 PM


    Re: Can I tell the truth, Jesus?
    Ringo, to be fair, the only verifiable I.D. that we have in this courtroom are the 4 people that we see in the front of the courtroom.
    All of us can imagine them quite clearly. Any other Deities that are introduced as witnesses and/or candidates for our next lineup will have been verified to exist by at least five sound-minded nominating committee members. In other words, Harvey the Big Rabbit or the Invisible Pink Unicorn would not qualify unless the nominating committee wished to consider another Urban Legend more popular than our buddy the Spaghetti Monster.(Who is great at communion, BTW. )
    The reason that I chose these particular four Deities in my initial post was that both Jesus and Lady Wisdom are mentioned in the Bible (a sticking point in much of our debates) while Loki was proposed by Jar as being as likely to be God as anyone else in the evidence category.
    Let me first address the matter of verifiable I.D.
    Concerning the matter of allowing or disallowing the Bible, I propose that it be allowed in a limited presentation. Rob, for example, could be a witness for the defense and be asked to testify on the stand about why his Bible changed him. Upon cross examination, he could be asked whether it was Jesus or Lady Wisdom that changed him. The defense may attempt to suggest that Robs behavior in the courtroom be allowed as evidence of his change, but they may elect to not use Rob as a witness on their behalf.
    Lady Wisdom is no fool! BTW...Rob, you have not been asked to be quiet yet. The court merely asks that you only speak when called to the stand.
    May it please the court to introduce evidence for Sophia aka Lady Wisdom as the Deity:
    The Message writes:
    Lady Wisdom
    20-21 Lady Wisdom goes out in the street and shouts.
    At the town center she makes her speech.
    In the middle of the traffic she takes her stand.
    At the busiest corner she calls out:
    22-24 "Simpletons! How long will you wallow in ignorance?
    Cynics! How long will you feed your cynicism?
    Idiots! How long will you refuse to learn?
    About face! I can revise your life.
    Look, I'm ready to pour out my spirit on you;
    I'm ready to tell you all I know.
    As it is, I've called, but you've turned a deaf ear;
    I've reached out to you, but you've ignored me.
    25-28 "Since you laugh at my counsel
    and make a joke of my advice,
    How can I take you seriously?
    I'll turn the tables and joke about your troubles!
    What if the roof falls in,
    and your whole life goes to pieces?
    What if catastrophe strikes and there's nothing
    to show for your life but rubble and ashes?
    You'll need me then. You'll call for me, but don't expect
    an answer.
    No matter how hard you look, you won't find me.
    29-33 "Because you hated Knowledge
    and had nothing to do with the Fear-of-God,
    Because you wouldn't take my advice
    and brushed aside all my offers to train you,
    Well, you've made your bed”now lie in it;
    you wanted your own way”now, how do you like it?
    Don't you see what happens, you simpletons, you idiots?
    Carelessness kills; complacency is murder.
    First pay attention to me, and then relax.
    Now you can take it easy”you're in good hands."

    This message is a reply to:
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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18456
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 110 of 364 (380017)
    01-26-2007 4:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 61 by Greatest I am
    01-24-2007 1:45 AM


    Re: I am late but I am here if you chose to have faith
    The court now calls Greatest I am to the stand.
    We have a few questions to ask you about your statement. Since Jesus is already representing His Father, we wanted to ask you some questions to determine if you would make a good witness for the defense.
    1) You said:
    Do not expect our discussions to be easily understood. You must realize that expressing concepts into words is often time hard, especially when some of these concepts are not as we have been conditioned to think. Logic must prevail.
    Why is logic so hard to understand? Are you of sound mind and body? Have you read a variety of books on alternative belief systems?
    2) You said:
    This prophet has gained much knowledge and wisdom from direct contact. I hope it will suffice to clarify the reality we all live in.
    We may be able to use a prophet, but I have a question or two for you first. How many of the candidates in front of this court have you had direct contact with? (Brief answer, please.)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by Greatest I am, posted 01-24-2007 1:45 AM Greatest I am has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18456
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 118 of 364 (380084)
    01-26-2007 10:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
    01-26-2007 9:22 AM


    Be quiet and let the Rocks cry out
    Rob, you were asked to be quiet until called upon by this committee. We again ask you for silence. We are interwiewing another witness at this time.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by Rob, posted 01-26-2007 9:22 AM Rob has not replied

      
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