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Author Topic:   Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 241 of 316 (186334)
02-17-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by nator
02-17-2005 9:37 AM


Re: Missed Point
Got some time on your hands?
I want to debate, but I must go spend quality time with my kids, besides, I think I am starting to repeat myself, and that gets annoying.
I feel we both have good points, but just where do we draw the line, and just how valuble is life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by nator, posted 02-17-2005 9:37 AM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 242 of 316 (186337)
02-17-2005 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by nator
02-17-2005 10:23 AM


Re: Missed Point
Bush has consistently blocked any funding for family planning services around the globe.
Well he's just craphead, isn't he then?
Yea let's spend 80 billion+ on war, and forget about human caring. Not the Christian I pictured.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by nator, posted 02-17-2005 10:23 AM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 243 of 316 (186339)
02-17-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by nator
02-17-2005 10:28 AM


Re: Missed Point
What are you doing to promote contraception use to make abortion rarer?
Is everything my responsibility?
You lay a lot on me don't you.
I teach abstenence to my children, and if they can't control themselves to use contraception. What more can I do?
There is no easy way out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by nator, posted 02-17-2005 10:28 AM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 244 of 316 (186341)
02-17-2005 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Asgara
02-17-2005 10:51 AM


Re: Missed Point
My stance on abortion does not solely come from what happened to me, but the sum of life experiences, and how I value life.
I would choose #2 with a few more reasons why it would be ok to have an abortion.
Mostly, I am against using abortion as a form of birth control.
Your opinion is your opinion, and I respect it, even if I do not agree with it. It is the sum of your life experiences.
So you felt nothing afterwards?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Asgara, posted 02-17-2005 10:51 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by AdminPhat, posted 02-17-2005 6:28 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 249 by Asgara, posted 02-17-2005 8:35 PM riVeRraT has replied

AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 316 (186345)
02-17-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by riVeRraT
02-17-2005 6:14 PM


Talking to oneself?
RiverRat, I notice that you have made posts 239,240,241,242,243,and244. Is there any more efficient way of combining these posts into one or at most, two? It is so much more efficient and Im a neatness freak about posts.
RiverRat writes:
I think I am starting to repeat myself, and that gets annoying.
It appears that everyone is not responding to you as quickly as you would like. Rat, how do you respond to the topic starter? What is the main point that you want the forum to consider?
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 02-17-2005 16:32 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 6:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by riVeRraT, posted 02-18-2005 8:17 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 246 of 316 (186351)
02-17-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by riVeRraT
02-17-2005 5:43 PM


I really can't believe people can think like this. If everyone would realize that when you play with fire you might get burned, we would all be ok.
Yes, this is very simple. If you do anything there is a chance of something happening to you that you may not want, or be able to handle. That comes with life.
The best thing you can do is lock yourself in a lead box till you die, or actually live a life but take precautions. If you take precautions, they may fail, but then it is out of your hands. You did what you humanly could do to avoid bad things from occuring YET CONTINUED TO LIVE YOUR LIFE AND NOT LOCK YOURSELF IN A LEAD BOX TILL YOU DIE.
It really is that simple.
You mean you really don't know the answer to this one?
From the woman's perspective regarding having an unwanted pregnancy I do not see the difference. There are of course the visceral differences between the two which have nothing to do with what we are discussing.
Another good reason to not play games with life, and only seriously consider having sex, unless you are willing to take the risk.
Agreed, and thus for people that do not believe in little magical fairy babies waiting for the woman to just give them a chance, they have other options so as to minimize the risk.
Show me one birth control package or drug that claims 100% effectiveness.
Heheheh. First of all, what percentage do you need before you can say you have taken reasonable precautions. I'm one to say anything over 90% is pretty reasonable. Second, have you read birth control packages? Most of the ones I have seen explain that you should be combining them with other methods for greater protection.
Do you think abortion is a form of birth control?
Literally speaking abortion is a form of birth control. What it is not is a form of pregnancy control or contraceptive. That is to say it is a last step in birth control, unless a culture allows for infanticide.
In any case it is always preferable to prevent the conception in the first place. Or if not that then the implantation. Once that occurs things begin to get worse for the woman.
Do you think that woman are having abortions because while they don't mind kids, they are afraid of being pregnant?
I don't think this is well put. More accurately I do believe that women who are faced with a pregnancy weigh the risk of continuing with it through birth, to the potential beneficial outcomes. The latter may be affected by potential negative outcomes as well (like impact on the woman or family's life).
You seem to miss that a child has several effects on a woman's life and there are plenty of reasons a married woman will not want to have kids. The threat to her life or livelihood (especially if she already has kids) may not be deemed worth it, as well as what impact a living baby will take up of family resources.
There are more issues in real pregnancies than were ever dreamt of in your philosophy, horatio.
Do you have kids?
That's a great question. If you believe life begins at conception I may have many many numbers of kids, right?
How do you feel about the outcome of this story?
You mean am I glad the woman was able to fend off an attacker? Yeah. What does this have to do with anything. You will note that at the bottom of your article it says that in a similar incident a fetus removed at 6 weeks did not live. I guess the attacker was under the mistaken opinion that all she had to do was cut out the "baby" and "give it a chance".
The fact remains that it absolutly hinges on the criteria being forever lost or not. It's a ghost of an arguement.
If this is true then you better make a more detailed case of why. I personally don't see why it hinges on whether they have been lost or not. He even said it didn't and explained why it didn't.
You do not need any law, or act, or even half a brain to know that if you rip a gestational being from a womb, it will die, unless it has developed enough. That fact that it can, or cannot survive on its own, means nothing to it's personess.
Actually I think this is the summation of the problem. Anyone with a brain and the current scientific knowledge we have on pregnancy and gestational development, will know that if you rip a gestational being from a womb it will not die as a person dies, but as a piece of tissue dies. It is not a person, according to the criteria RAZD nicely worked out, during much of its gestation. It has no quality one normally uses to identify a person.
The fact that it is in a belly and so you can pretend that it is a baby that just needs a chance, does not change facts. Until well along it is living just as a tissue, or tumorous growth.
But now that I believe in God, and he blesses me with knowledge and wisdom from the Holy Spirit, I now understand why it happened to me.
Well you have yet to say anything that makes sense here. I hope its better than "society made me do it."
If I crash and die from it, I cannot get an abortion and make it all better.
No but you can get an operation to save your life from injuries sustained. During sex there is a chance that a zygote will form an implant itself in the uterus. If precautions were taken then this would be the "accident", or "risk" which you had tried to avoid. Thankfully an operation is available to remove the risks that implanted entity could pose if it were to grow into a fetus and then a baby.
That's what I'm saying.
No, if it were then I'd respect your position. You could even go on to state your opinion that life is sacred according to your religious beliefs and so those that believe in it should avoid abortion.
What is actually happening is that you made false statements about sex, sex education, society, RAZD's argument, the nature of gestational life, as well as saying that laws should be in place to prevent people from doing what you would not choose to do for yourself.
Once again I will point out that I am not telling you what to do with your life. If you feel life begins at conception and so should not be killed, then that is great for you, run with it. I am saying you should not be trying to tell others how they should live their lives, under threat of law.
It's is definatly not the goal of the 2 organizations I am involved with.
Name them. I have yet to see an organization that is prolife and prosex education, pro contraceptive, and pro socialized healthcare. I usually see what you have said... don't have sex, and if you do then have the baby. I am open to evidence.
But I would like to get your position on this. Are you saying you are for all those things? Do you agree they are necessary for a person to truly be commited to a position called "prolife"?
He is 22 now, and he just admitted to me the other day, that he used to masturbate to that book, and before that he didn't masturbate.
Nine years old? Maybe he just didn't remember the times he played with himself before that. Are you telling me you never caught your son playing with his penis at anytime between birth and 9 years old?
In any case I am unsure what I am supposed to take away from this. Masturbation does not cause pregnancy (100%), and as long as it did teach him how to avoid pregnancy and it worked, so what if he whacked off to it?
As a kid I whacked off to just about everything, including the stereotypical "national geographic".
There is more to that story, and it's not good. It goes along with how screwd up society is. So take what you want from that story.
Again, locus of control. So now you had no control over how you raised your kid? The only thing that I can take from that story is that somewhere there is a sex ed book which a kid liked to masturbate to. Has he gotten girls pregnant because of its advice or what?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 5:43 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by riVeRraT, posted 02-18-2005 9:27 AM Silent H has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 247 of 316 (186390)
02-17-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by riVeRraT
02-17-2005 5:58 PM


Re: A person put on life support is not dead and a dead person is not put on life sup
what I understand is that people on life support are not dead.
you cannot keep conflating life support with the {legal death\legal life} issue.
the grass is green because the sky is blue.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 5:58 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by riVeRraT, posted 02-18-2005 9:31 AM RAZD has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 248 of 316 (186393)
02-17-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by riVeRraT
02-17-2005 5:47 PM


Re: Missed Point, AGAIN!
and that fact makes your position untenable. you may as well say that you are the same as being already dead.
you are just a walking dead person that we may as well bury now while you can help with the process.
the future is not the now, the now is not the future. life is now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 5:47 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 249 of 316 (186394)
02-17-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by riVeRraT
02-17-2005 6:14 PM


Re: Missed Point
You pick #2. So in other words you were being condescending when you initially told me that of course your opinion doesn't outweigh mine. You are advocating just that, that your opinion become law and outweigh mine.
I never said you had to agree with my opinion. I never said you had to make my choice or feel what I felt or do what I do. If you truly respect my opinion and my choice then why do you feel that I have no right to have my opinion taken seriously or the right to make MY choice?
I don't want to force women who do not agree with me to have an abortion. Why would you want to force women who do not agree with you to NOT have one.
So you felt nothing afterwards
Where do you get that from what I wrote? I didn't discuss my "feelings" about the abortion in that post. I asked you a question about your opinion to help me clarify your patronizing attitude.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by riVeRraT, posted 02-17-2005 6:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by riVeRraT, posted 02-18-2005 9:34 AM Asgara has replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 250 of 316 (186404)
02-17-2005 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by RAZD
02-16-2005 10:18 PM


Re: a question
People generalize because people don't knowq the individual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2005 10:18 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2005 10:36 PM Trump won has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 251 of 316 (186459)
02-18-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by AdminPhat
02-17-2005 6:28 PM


Re: Talking to oneself?
I guess I should read everyone's replies, and then summerize, but then it gets impersonal, and people miss my reply. I usually only have enough time to respond to the notification in the e-mails, and not browse the entire thread.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 02-18-2005 08:18 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by AdminPhat, posted 02-17-2005 6:28 PM AdminPhat has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 252 of 316 (186475)
02-18-2005 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Silent H
02-17-2005 6:47 PM


I think your not reading the whole thread or following all the conversations.
Let's see if we can condense this a little.
Once again I will point out that I am not telling you what to do with your life.
That is not what this is about. I haven't told anybody to do anything. I have mearly stated that if you have sex, you can get pregnant.
Name them.
I did ealier. I even supplied links.
This whole thing is about life. Life is a gift and a blessing whether you believe in God or not. It is after all, how we got here in the first place to debate this. Most of the people in the world would agree including RAZD. I can't find the thread now, but it was the discussion that spawned this thread again. RAZD states that all life is valuable(something to that affect).
This is also apparent in how many life saving organizations there are for people, animals, mammals, and plants in the world.
So we can safely say that the priority of maintaining life is a high one. Since it is the act of intercourse that starts life, it then becomes our responsibility to control it. I do not think it is right to play games with life.
If the pregnancy due to complications is going to lead to death of the mother, or the child would be born dead, or a persons life was violated by rape, then I am for abortion.
But if it is a willful choice of 2 consenting adults (especially married ones) then I do not think we should be trying to control life with abortion. It doesn't make any sense to me, and I consider it destruction of said life. I have listened to everyone's points on this and given it fair chance. I cannot be for something that destroys life. (although I am probably am in some way shape or form that I do not know about, because many things destroy life). I also feel that sex is the gift of sarting life (or trying to), it's probably the reason why we have an orgasm, because of the beauty of starting life. I do not feel we have the right to abuse this, simply because it feels good. It's almost as if the act of having sex without the intention of starting life is an abuse. The right to have sex is a right given by man, like we have sme kind of control over it, not by life itself. But somehow life seems to find a way through regardless. so when we fail at trying to stop life from ever forming, then what do we do? Rip it out, and kill it. I do not find this acceptable.
Like RAZD says life started 3.5 billion years ago, and I think we owe it to life(or whatever started it) to respect it. Since we are not exactly sure what or who started it. If it was God, then we are definatly doing the wrong thing, and we are a people of the earth, a human race, and our collective decsions on life affect all of us.
If everyone started thinking of the human race as one, then this world could start to be a better place. Abortion seems to go against this way of thinking. That's what John Lennon wanted in his song. He left God out of it, because he felt the belief's of people where getting in the way of accomplishing that goal. but I believe it is God's desire for us to be as one, but he knows this will never happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Silent H, posted 02-17-2005 6:47 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Silent H, posted 02-18-2005 11:14 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 253 of 316 (186479)
02-18-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by RAZD
02-17-2005 8:28 PM


Re: A person put on life support is not dead and a dead person is not put on life sup
If someone is declared brain dead, are they dead or alive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by RAZD, posted 02-17-2005 8:28 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2005 10:19 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 254 of 316 (186482)
02-18-2005 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Asgara
02-17-2005 8:35 PM


Re: Missed Point
You are advocating just that, that your opinion become law and outweigh mine.
Aren't you doing the same?
There are many laws in this world, should we just disregard all of them?
I never said you had to agree with my opinion.
Yes you are, you are asking me to say it's legal, and there-for ok. Why can't you respect that?
So you felt nothing afterwards
Where do you get that from what I wrote?
I was asking you, not telling you. Isn't it funny how you left the question mark out of my quote?
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 02-18-2005 09:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Asgara, posted 02-17-2005 8:35 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Asgara, posted 02-18-2005 9:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 255 of 316 (186485)
02-18-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by riVeRraT
02-18-2005 9:34 AM


Re: Missed Point
MY opinion still leaves you the option of following your beliefs on the matter. YOUR opinion negates my beliefs on the matter.
If you do not agree with my opinion, then fine DO NOT HAVE AN ABORTION. Believe it goes against your religious beliefs, then fine PEOPLE WITH YOUR BELIEFS DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE AN ABORTION.
Whether or not I left the question mark off your question does nothing for you. If you were merely asking how I felt then why not phrase it:
"How did you feel afterwards?" The way your phrased your question made it seem like I had intimated that I felt nothing. "So you quit beating your wife after that incident?"

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by riVeRraT, posted 02-18-2005 9:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by riVeRraT, posted 02-19-2005 8:54 AM Asgara has replied

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