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Author Topic:   Religion in Government
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 286 of 303 (117436)
06-22-2004 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by riVeRraT
06-21-2004 9:03 AM


Re: I think you have hit on something here
riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
The difference is I am a god with a small "g"
When have you ever seen me write "god" with a capital G except at the beginning of a sentence or when quoting someone?
Since we're both gods, and since you are clearly not the same god that I am, we have by our mere existence disproven your claim that all gods are the same one god.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by riVeRraT, posted 06-21-2004 9:03 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2004 8:53 AM Rrhain has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 287 of 303 (117440)
06-22-2004 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by riVeRraT
06-21-2004 10:05 PM


riVeRraT plagiariazes from a spam email:
quote:
As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view .. it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!
(*sigh!*)
You act as if that's the only thing in that frieze. They are, from left to right on the South Wall:
Menes
Hamurabi
Moses
Solomon
Lycurgus
Solon
Draco
Confucius
Octavian
The North Wall, from right to left:
Justinian
Muhammed
Charlemagne
King John
Louis IX
Hugo Grotius
Sir William Blackstone
John Marshall
Napoleon
A picture and description of each figure can be found at Courtroom Friezes: North and South Walls
So just as US Law isn't based upon any of the other figures in legal history, US Law isn't based upon the Ten Commandments. It is an historical, allegorical description of legal organizations. As such, of course you would include religious variations.
The difference, as stated above, is that the frieze of the US Supreme Court isn't trying to say that the Ten Commandments have any bearing on anything.
Would Moore have wanted to include all the other legal codes in his monument?
If you want, I can go into a detailed, point-by-point rebuttal to each of your claims. Here's a site that's already done a lot of the ground work:
Evidences of Faith in the Buildings, Memorials, and Forefathers of the United States-Truth!, Fiction! & Unproven!
It turns out that some of those claims of your are simply not true. for example, the claim that the justices sit in front of a depiction of the Ten Commandments is false. Instead, they sit before a depiction of the Majesty of Law and the Power of Government. Between them is a tablet with the Roman numerals 1 through 10 carved into them.
They do not represent the Ten Commandments. Instead, they represent the Bill of Rights.
But, that's the intention of the artist and who the hell would believe the artist?
But let's just skip to the end:
quote:
How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?
Because it is.
Even if millions of people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by riVeRraT, posted 06-21-2004 10:05 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2004 8:51 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 293 by Coragyps, posted 06-22-2004 10:32 AM Rrhain has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 288 of 303 (117451)
06-22-2004 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by coffee_addict
06-21-2004 11:14 PM


I understand your point of view.
You may find out the answer one day to that question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by coffee_addict, posted 06-21-2004 11:14 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by coffee_addict, posted 06-22-2004 4:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 289 of 303 (117452)
06-22-2004 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Asgara
06-21-2004 10:44 PM


Sorry for the cut and paste, but it was sent to me in an e-mail. I felt the timing of it was pretty good, so cutting and pasting does not make it invalid for the disscussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Asgara, posted 06-21-2004 10:44 PM Asgara has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 290 of 303 (117453)
06-22-2004 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Rrhain
06-22-2004 7:03 AM


I didn't say it was the only thing, just a part of, to answer the original question.
Even if millions of people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing
You have no right to say this statement.
In a couple more posts you will declare how millions of people go against what I believe as if millions of people believing in something is valid. You did it already.
Stop using points of view only when it suites you best.
Hypocrite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2004 7:03 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Rrhain, posted 06-23-2004 12:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 291 of 303 (117454)
06-22-2004 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Rrhain
06-22-2004 6:43 AM


Re: I think you have hit on something here
Your definition of god/God, and mine are different.
There is only one God, yet many gods.
When you are a god, you are appointed by God, whether you think so or not.
This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 06-22-2004 07:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2004 6:43 AM Rrhain has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 292 of 303 (117455)
06-22-2004 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by jar
06-21-2004 10:16 PM


Lets hope that it doesn't create a whole new set of problems.
It's been a good thread, peace everyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 06-21-2004 10:16 PM jar has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 293 of 303 (117469)
06-22-2004 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Rrhain
06-22-2004 7:03 AM


You act as if that's the only thing in that frieze.
Thanks immensely for that link, Rrhain! The next time that little clod of spam comes to my inbox, I'll know what to send back!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2004 7:03 AM Rrhain has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 294 of 303 (117570)
06-22-2004 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by riVeRraT
06-22-2004 8:47 AM


the rat writes:
You may find out the answer one day to that question.
Actually, I've already found the answer. The answer is quite simple: All christian fundies are actually doing the devil's work, and I am the true messiah, the one that will destroy all forms of organized religion in this world. Organized religion is a plague, and I am the cure.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2004 8:47 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2004 12:03 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 295 of 303 (117738)
06-23-2004 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by riVeRraT
06-22-2004 8:51 AM


riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
I didn't say it was the only thing, just a part of, to answer the original question.
But the answer that it gives is actually the opposite of what you were making it out to be: The government of the US is in no way founded on Biblical justifications of right and wrong. If it were, if the friezes on the SCOTUS were evidence of the Biblical foundation of American jurisprudence, then we would have to revere the Code of Hammurabi, the Napoleonic Code, Muslim ideology, and Confucianism just as heavily because they are equally represented upon that frieze.
quote:
quote:
Even if millions of people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing
You have no right to say this statement.
I have every right to it. I am an intelligent being, capable of distinguishing right from wrong, blessed with the gifts of logic and analysis.
Something that is wrong is still wrong no matter how many people are sincere in their belief that it isn't.
quote:
In a couple more posts you will declare how millions of people go against what I believe as if millions of people believing in something is valid. You did it already.
I know.
It's called a "rhetorical device."
You do understand how rhetoric works, do you not? You are the one claiming that you are right because you are sincere. Well, there are other people who are just as sincere and they contradict you at every turn. In fact, there are more of them than there are of you.
So why should we trust you over them?
Maybe, just maybe, we need to have a different standard of examination than sincerity.
quote:
Stop using points of view only when it suites you best.
Nope, I guess you really don't understand rhetoric and the art of debate.
Of course I will use points of view when they suit me best. That's the entire point.
My use of your arguments against you is not an indication that I think your argument carries weight. It means that your argument is self-contradictory.
I'm sorry if you don't understand the nuances, but just because you don't understand doesn't mean it isn't right.
See...that goes back to my statement: Something that is wrong is still wrong no matter how sincere the belief that it isn't. It doesn't matter how many believe it nor how adamant they are. The universe is not beholden to your whims of what ought to be.
Your argument is that the foundation of American jurisprudence is based upon Christian tradition based upon claims that simply aren't true.
It doesn't matter how sincerely you believe it. It doesn't matter how many other people believe it with you. It doesn't matter how many people in the past thought it did. It doesn't matter how powerful they were.
The foundational document of this country, the Constitution, is explicit in separating religious justification from legislative action.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2004 8:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2004 12:20 PM Rrhain has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 296 of 303 (117890)
06-23-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by coffee_addict
06-22-2004 4:39 PM


You know you are partially right about that.
I felt the same way about the catholic church for many years. Its what kept me away from God all these years.
Yep, yep the devil has a stronghold on people in the churches.
Theres more I would like to say to you, but its not appropiate for this thread.
True Christians are far and few between.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by coffee_addict, posted 06-22-2004 4:39 PM coffee_addict has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 297 of 303 (117896)
06-23-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Rrhain
06-23-2004 12:41 AM


But the answer that it gives is actually the opposite of what you were making it out to be: The government of the US is in no way founded on Biblical justifications of right and wrong. If it were, if the friezes on the SCOTUS were evidence of the Biblical foundation of American jurisprudence, then we would have to revere the Code of Hammurabi, the Napoleonic Code, Muslim ideology, and Confucianism just as heavily because they are equally represented upon that frieze.
Thats what I am saying to you.
I have every right to it. I am an intelligent being, capable of distinguishing right from wrong, blessed with the gifts of logic and analysis.
Something that is wrong is still wrong no matter how many people are sincere in their belief that it isn't.
Everything you think is right, may one day turn out to be wrong.
Try not to be so humble.
So why should we trust you over them?
I never asked you to trust me, I mentioned that I trust in God.
See...that goes back to my statement: Something that is wrong is still wrong no matter how sincere the belief that it isn't. It doesn't matter how many believe it nor how adamant they are. The universe is not beholden to your whims of what ought to be.
Nor is it to yours.
You have inspired me to do something. Its a total challenge for only.
I feel as though your logic fails, and you are a hypocrite. You also are very repetetive, and do not make a stand on anything.
You seem to think you can come from no-where, and stand for nothing, and use some kind of logic to justify yourself. The logic you use is based on science and statistics, which both fail reduntantly.
You think you can take whatever side of an argument whenever you feel like it, because you are so smart. You have placed yourself on a very high pedestal and we all need binoculars to see you. Thats ok, cause when you fall, you will hit the ground hard.
Remember the more you learn, the less you know.
You have feed off other people hatred of Christians in this forum, to fuel your side of the debate. You have critized me for not putting my home town and name in my profile, yet you won't tell us what you stand for, because of your fear of what would happen next.
Since you type so dam much and repeat yourself so much, and bring up points of an arguement that I have already answered, and like to waste my time. You have inspired me to answer to you only in scripture, lol.
Until I feel I don't want to anymore. This will be a challenge to me, as I am not an expert on scripture, so I will have to go look up a lot of things.
So do me a favor and keep your replys short.
disclaimer: The above response is not a judgement, it is based on fact. Its what you did.
Proverbs 9:8
Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.
Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Rrhain, posted 06-23-2004 12:41 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Rrhain, posted 06-24-2004 6:17 AM riVeRraT has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 298 of 303 (118197)
06-24-2004 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by riVeRraT
06-23-2004 12:20 PM


riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Something that is wrong is still wrong no matter how many people are sincere in their belief that it isn't.
Everything you think is right, may one day turn out to be wrong.
Try not to be so humble.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?
quote:
You also are very repetetive, and do not make a stand on anything.
I repeat myself because you keep making the same mistakes. Come up with something new and you'll get something new.
And I take a stand on plenty of issues. I simply refuse to dwell on irrelevant notions.
F'rinstance, it is immoral, unethical, and anti-American to deny gay people complete and equal access to all parts of the law. And that means we need to immediately repeal all sodomy laws, ensure the equal rights of marriage, and start treating those who aren't straight the exact same way we treat those who are.
What does my sexuality have to do with that? Surely you aren't saying that the only reason a person could possibly think that is because he's gay, are you?
quote:
You have critized me for not putting my home town and name in my profile,
Incorrect.
Instead, I stated that you are incapable of demonstrating harassment as this is an anonymous forum in which you have provided no identifying information. Thus, there is no way for anybody to force you to engage him without your direct consent. Nobody can flood your email with unwanted messages, nobody can call you up in the middle of the night, nobody can knock on your door unbidden save the admins and I am not one of them.
I never said that you should provide that information. I simply pointed out that since you haven't, you have no claim of harassment. As someone who once received a phone call at work from someone who didn't particularly like what I had said on a BBS and physically threatened me, I perfectly understand the concept of harassment.
You aren't being harassed, friend. You're simply being trounced.
Get over yourself and grow up.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2004 12:20 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2004 10:50 AM Rrhain has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 299 of 303 (118232)
06-24-2004 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by Rrhain
06-24-2004 6:17 AM


riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
quote:Something that is wrong is still wrong no matter how many people are sincere in their belief that it isn't.
Everything you think is right, may one day turn out to be wrong.
Try not to be so humble.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?
What the? lmao
It has nothing to do with God.
Thats getting old already.
Job 40:12
look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand.
What does my sexuality have to do with that? Surely you aren't saying that the only reason a person could possibly think that is because he's gay, are you?
Nope.
James 1
24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.
26If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.
You aren't being harassed, friend. You're simply being trounced.
Thats your opinion.
Isaiah 44
25 who foils the signs of false prophets
and makes fools of diviners,
who overthrows the learning of the wise
and turns it into nonsense,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Rrhain, posted 06-24-2004 6:17 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Rrhain, posted 06-25-2004 12:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 300 of 303 (118507)
06-25-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by riVeRraT
06-24-2004 10:50 AM


riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
Thats getting old already.
Then stop invoking the wager. Every time you try to say that my actions are going to have effects that god will notice (such as the thinly-veiled implication that "one day", meaning when I die, I'll find that "everything I think is right turns out to be wrong," meaning I'll have splainin' to do to god) is the attempt to claim that I should believe in your god because if I don't, I'll go to hell.
You see, the difference between your claim of "you just might be wrong" and mine is that when I state it, the only person I claim you need to explain it to is yourself. When you state it, you imply my immortal soul is on the line.
quote:
quote:
What does my sexuality have to do with that? Surely you aren't saying that the only reason a person could possibly think that is because he's gay, are you?
Nope.
Then answer my question: What does my sexuality have to do with it? You whined that I never take a stand and yet I just showed you the simplified version of the stand I've been taking with you for weeks now:
It is immoral, unethical, and anti-American to deny gay people complete and equal access to all parts of the law. And that means we need to immediately repeal all sodomy laws, ensure the equal rights of marriage, and start treating those who aren't straight the exact same way we treat those who are.
And yet, the thing you seem to be most upset about is that I refuse to satisfy your bizarre obsession over whether or not I make passes at boys who wear glasses.
quote:
quote:
You aren't being harassed, friend. You're simply being trounced.
Thats your opinion.
So prove it wrong.
How could you possibly be harmed by what is said in a completely voluntary forum where nobody knows who you are and has absolutely no way of contacting you except in said forum?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by riVeRraT, posted 06-24-2004 10:50 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by riVeRraT, posted 06-25-2004 10:25 AM Rrhain has not replied

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