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Author Topic:   My "Beef" With Atheists
kongstad
Member (Idle past 2897 days)
Posts: 175
From: Copenhagen, Denmark
Joined: 02-24-2004


Message 76 of 123 (482958)
09-19-2008 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Syamsu
09-18-2008 6:06 PM


I see your post is in reply to mine.
Could I ask you to specify to what you specifically reply to in my post? It didn't mention love at all, and it sure didn't claim that there was no love in the universe.
I would agree with the statement that the universe cannot fell love, since the universe is a collection of all there is, and even though parts of the universe can feel love, the universe as a whole cannot. Just like a country is made up of people, land and other stuff, but countries cannot love, even though individual people can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Syamsu, posted 09-18-2008 6:06 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 11:49 AM kongstad has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 77 of 123 (482982)
09-19-2008 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by kongstad
09-19-2008 9:06 AM


Reference the paper which establishes as fact the love of people. What love consists of, and how it is measured.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by kongstad, posted 09-19-2008 9:06 AM kongstad has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by onifre, posted 09-19-2008 11:58 AM Syamsu has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2978 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 78 of 123 (482984)
09-19-2008 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Syamsu
09-19-2008 11:49 AM


Syamsu writes:
Reference the paper which establishes as fact the love of people.
Any piece of paper written by anyone that reads: "I love my mom", or "I love (fill in the blank)", establishes love as a fact since love is a subjective human experience.
What love consists of, and how it is measured.
Love is measured by the individual experiencing the feelings that we call love. Love, as I said above, is a subjective human experience. Subjective experiences will rarely have evidence other than the fact that people have subjective experiences.

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 11:49 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 3:01 PM onifre has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 79 of 123 (483011)
09-19-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by onifre
09-19-2008 11:58 AM


Right, so you have no paper then, which is ofcourse because there is no love-o-meter, it's all pretend-science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by onifre, posted 09-19-2008 11:58 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Rrhain, posted 09-19-2008 3:31 PM Syamsu has replied
 Message 81 by onifre, posted 09-19-2008 3:36 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 80 of 123 (483016)
09-19-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Syamsu
09-19-2008 3:01 PM


Syamsu writes:
quote:
Right, so you have no paper then, which is ofcourse because there is no love-o-meter, it's all pretend-science.
(*sigh*)
Are you trying to tell us that though you are capable of using a browser, finding this site, creating an account, and posting messages, you have still been unable to figure out how to use a search engine?
And after six years of being on this site, you still have never heard of PubMed?
Turk Psikiyatri Derg. 2008 Fall;19(3):300-9.
[Sex differences in sexual versus emotional jealousy: evolutionary approach and recent discussions.]
[Article in Turkish]
Demirta Madran HA.
PMID: 18791883 [PubMed - in process]
Sex differences in jealousy have been reported widely in the social psychological, clinical psychological, psychiatric, and anthropological literature. Many of the studies conducted on jealousy have focused on the sex differences in the level of reported jealousy. Most research has reported that there is no difference between men and women regarding the level of reported jealousy, but there are some sex differences between sexual and emotional jealousy. Evolutionary psychologists divide jealousy into 2 dimensions based on their observations and empirical research findings: Sexual jealousy and emotional jealousy. Sexual jealousy is knowing or suspecting that one's partners has had sexual relationship with a third person, whereas emotional jealousy is triggered by partner's emotional involvement with and/or love for another person. The parental investment model, which extended Darwin's explanations of sexual selection, provides a useful theoretical framework for studying sexual and emotional jealousy. According to this model sexual selection is driven by differential parental investment by men and women; men should experience more sexual jealousy than women and women should experience more emotional jealousy than men. Considerable research has focused on testing this hypothesis and, with a few exceptions, the results are generally consistent with the evolutionary account. In this study, firstly, a brief definition of the sexual and emotional jealousy will be given. Then, sex differences in sexual and emotional jealousy will be explained according to the evolutionary theory. Finally, the results of empirical studies and critiques of the evolutionary model will be given.
Prague Med Rep. 2007;108(4):297-305.
Endocrine factors of pair bonding.
Stárka L.
Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. lstarka@endo.cz
PMID: 18780641 [PubMed - in process]
Throughout literature--fiction and poetry, fine arts and music--falling in love and enjoying romantic love plays a central role. While several psychosocial conceptions of pair attachment consider the participation of hormones, human endocrinology has dealt with this theme only marginally. According to some authors in addictology, falling in love shows some signs of hormonal response to stressors with changes in dopamine and serotonin signalling and neurotrophin (transforming growth factor b) concentration. Endorphins, oxytocin and vasopressin may play a role during the later phases of love. However, proof of hormonal events associated with love in humans has, until recently, been lacking.
Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2004 Aug;29(7):931-6.
Hormonal changes when falling in love.
Marazziti D, Canale D.
Dipartimento di Psichiatria, Neurobiologia, Farmacologia e Biotecnologie, University of Pisa, via Roma, 67, 56100 Pisa, Italy. dmarazzi@psico.med.unipi.it
PMID: 15177709 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
To fall in love is the first step in pair formation in humans and is a complex process which only recently has become the object of neuroscientific investigation. The little information available in this field prompted us to measure the levels of some pituitary, adrenal and gonadal hormones in a group of 24 subjects of both sexes who had recently (within the previous six months) fallen in love, and to compare them with those of 24 subjects who were single or were part of a long-lasting relationship. The following hormones were evaluated by means of standard techniques: FSH, LH, estradiol, progesterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEAS), cortisol, testosterone and androstenedione. The results showed that estradiol, progesterone, DHEAS and androstenedione levels did not differ between the groups and were within the normal ranges. Cortisol levels were significantly higher amongst those subjects who had recently fallen in love, as compared with those who had not. FSH and testosterone levels were lower in men in love, while women of the same group presented higher testosterone levels. All hormonal differences were eliminated when the subjects were re-tested from 12 to 24 months later. The increased cortisol and low FSH levels are suggestive of the "stressful" and arousing conditions associated with the initiation of a social contact. The changes of testosterone concentrations, which varied in opposite directions in the two sexes, may reflect changes in behavioural and/or temperamental traits which have yet to be clarified. In conclusion, the findings of the present study would indicate that to fall in love provokes transient hormonal changes some of which seem to be specific to each sex.
FEBS Lett. 2007 Jun 12;581(14):2580-6. Epub 2007 May 8.
From affiliative behaviors to romantic feelings: a role of nanopeptides.
Debiec J.
Department of Psychiatry, New York University School of Medicine, New York, NY 10016, USA. jacek@cns.nyu.edu
PMID: 17507012 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Love is one of the most desired experiences. The quest for understanding human bonds, especially love, was traditionally a domain of the humanities. Recent developments in biological sciences yield new insights into the mechanisms underlying the formation and maintenance of human relationships. Animal models of reproductive behaviors, mother-infant attachment and pair bonding complemented by human studies reveal neuroendocrine foundations of prosocial behaviors and emotions. Amongst various identified neurotransmitters and modulators, which control affiliative behaviors, the particular role of nanopeptides has been indicated. New studies suggest that these chemicals are not only involved in regulating bonding processes in animals but also contribute to generating positive social attitudes and feelings in humans.
FEBS Lett. 2007 Jun 12;581(14):2575-9. Epub 2007 May 8.
The neurobiology of love.
Zeki S.
University College, Department of Anatomy, London, UK. zeki.pa@ucl.ac.uk
PMID: 17531984 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Romantic and maternal love are highly rewarding experiences. Both are linked to the perpetuation of the species and therefore have a closely linked biological function of crucial evolutionary importance. The newly developed ability to study the neural correlates of subjective mental states with brain imaging techniques has allowed neurobiologists to learn something about the neural bases of both romantic and maternal love. Both types of attachment activate regions specific to each, as well as overlapping regions in the brain's reward system that coincide with areas rich in oxytocin and vasopressin receptors. Both deactivate a common set of regions associated with negative emotions, social judgment and 'mentalizing' that is, the assessment of other people's intentions and emotions. Human attachment seems therefore to employ a push-pull mechanism that overcomes social distance by deactivating networks used for critical social assessment and negative emotions, while it bonds individuals through the involvement of the reward circuitry, explaining the power of love to motivate and exhilarate. Yet the biological study of love, and especially romantic love, must go beyond and look for biological insights that can be derived from studying the world literature of love, and thus bring the output of the humanities into its orbit.
And that was with literally less than one minute's worth of searching.
If you aren't going to be bothered to do your homework....
Edited by Rrhain, : No reason given.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 3:01 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 7:09 PM Rrhain has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2978 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 81 of 123 (483018)
09-19-2008 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Syamsu
09-19-2008 3:01 PM


Syamsu writes:
Right, so you have no paper then, which is ofcourse because there is no love-o-meter, it's all pretend-science.
You seem to have missed my point. Any paper that states "I love (fill in the blank)" is explaining love. Love as in 'the subjective interpretation of a human emotion'.
There is a love-o-meter but you must first be able to have subjective experiences to have one. IOW, the love-o-meter is internal. Within humans. Location: Brain. There's no pretend science here. We have observable evidence of certain areas in the brain becoming active when these emotions are experienced.
The universe has none of this. How would you be able to prove that the universe feels love? Or how would it be possible for the universe to experience love?

"All great truths begin as blasphemies"
"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 3:01 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 7:14 PM onifre has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 82 of 123 (483056)
09-19-2008 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Rrhain
09-19-2008 3:31 PM


Those papers are by art of reasonable judgement, don't you understand anything?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Rrhain, posted 09-19-2008 3:31 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Rrhain, posted 09-19-2008 8:48 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 83 of 123 (483058)
09-19-2008 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by onifre
09-19-2008 3:36 PM


The meaning of subjectivity is, by decision, it adds information. Objectivity means passing on information, nothing is added or substracted. So you see the essential difference here is between alternatives or no alternatives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by onifre, posted 09-19-2008 3:36 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by onifre, posted 09-20-2008 6:21 PM Syamsu has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3976
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 84 of 123 (483067)
09-19-2008 8:24 PM


Topic abandonment alert
Message 68 strikes me as being the last clear (or not so clear) contact with the topic theme. Since then any considerations of atheism are uncertain.
Might members try to make the atheism connection a little more explicit?
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.
There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 85 of 123 (483074)
09-19-2008 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Syamsu
09-19-2008 7:09 PM


Syamsu responds to me:
quote:
Those papers are by art of reasonable judgement, don't you understand anything?
Non sequitur. Please rephrase.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 7:09 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Syamsu, posted 09-20-2008 5:20 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 86 of 123 (483126)
09-20-2008 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Rrhain
09-19-2008 8:48 PM


The psychologists are looking at decisions, the subjectivity of a person, and making judgement on it, which is another decision. For this they use reasonable judgement, as found in common knowledge, which people use in every-day life.
To assert jealousy and such as objective statements of fact, means they are material things or processes, so that the spiritual realm is empty, and therefore it is atheistic.
But I'm getting the feeling that by explaining it, I'm losing the discussion, because people who assert such things as objective fact should basically just be punished. Everybody knows it is wrong to objectify things such as love or jealousy, and talking about it, kind of doubting it, is really not allowed in my opinion.
Usually the pretend-scientists begin by talking how complex love is, about trillions of possible interactions. But the shroud of complexity is just because the scientists know that the moment they define it precisely, people are going to reject their science. So they keep hovering over it like they have a handle on it, making promises of improving, but never delivering the precise detail.
I think this also may explain why scientists and sciencefans are generally not normal, and lack emotion. In the seventies there was this big parasitical movement, where regular people invested meaning in words such as love and jealousy, and an intellectual selfsuperior upperclass which used up the meaning invested in those words by regular people. In the eighties this meaning was already used up, the party was over, and since then intellectuals have been searching for fresh blood in the shape of exotic cultures to parasite meaning from. Instead universities should enforce the rule not to speak about what ought and ought not more strictly.
Edited by Syamsu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Rrhain, posted 09-19-2008 8:48 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by bluescat48, posted 09-20-2008 5:01 PM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 89 by Rrhain, posted 09-20-2008 7:28 PM Syamsu has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4216 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 87 of 123 (483192)
09-20-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Syamsu
09-20-2008 5:20 AM


"return to normalcy"
I think this also may explain why scientists and sciencefans are generally not normal, and lack emotion.
OK. Then just tell me what you think is normal? Normal is a relative term, what may be normal to one person could be abnormal to another.
Edited by bluescat48, : No reason given.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Syamsu, posted 09-20-2008 5:20 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2978 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 88 of 123 (483210)
09-20-2008 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Syamsu
09-19-2008 7:14 PM


Syamsu writes:
The meaning of subjectivity is, by decision, it adds information. Objectivity means passing on information, nothing is added or substracted. So you see the essential difference here is between alternatives or no alternatives.
Im trying to understand what this means, maybe a bit more clarity on what you're saying is required?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Syamsu, posted 09-19-2008 7:14 PM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Syamsu, posted 09-20-2008 7:36 PM onifre has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 89 of 123 (483220)
09-20-2008 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Syamsu
09-20-2008 5:20 AM


Syamsu writes:
quote:
To assert jealousy and such as objective statements of fact, means they are material things or processes, so that the spiritual realm is empty
But you just said science claims love doesn't exist. Now you're going full force along the claim that science does claim love exists.
Which is it?
quote:
therefore it is atheistic.
Huh? When was it decided that emotions were supernatural?
quote:
Everybody knows it is wrong to objectify things such as love or jealousy
But if we can study it and do so in a "reasonable" way, to use your term, what makes it "wrong"? "There are some things man was simply not meant to know"?
quote:
Usually the pretend-scientists begin by talking how complex love is, about trillions of possible interactions.
You didn't read any of the studies I provided, did you? Having refused to do your homework before, you're going to continue to refuse to do it now.
Where in the studies I provided do you find anything of the sort?
Be specific.
quote:
But the shroud of complexity is just because the scientists know that the moment they define it precisely, people are going to reject their science.
Strange...people have been "rejecting science" for as long as science has been around because they don't like the results. Need I remind you that people were burned at the stake for daring to say that the earth went around the sun?
Where do you get this idea that scientists are chicken?
quote:
I think this also may explain why scientists and sciencefans are generally not normal, and lack emotion.
Ah, yes. The last refuge of the incompetent. When you can't defend your argument, lash out at the one that showed you wrong.
That's Richard Feynman. Arguably one of the greatest physicists of the modern era (the one singing, on the right). And while we're on the subject of Feynman, I highly recommend you picking a copy of Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! It has a good description of what inspires scientists.
To claim that scientists are without emotion is simply to show that you know nothing of scientists.
quote:
In the seventies there was this big parasitical movement, where regular people invested meaning in words such as love and jealousy, and an intellectual selfsuperior upperclass which used up the meaning invested in those words by regular people. In the eighties this meaning was already used up, the party was over, and since then intellectuals have been searching for fresh blood in the shape of exotic cultures to parasite meaning from. Instead universities should enforce the rule not to speak about what ought and ought not more strictly.
Non sequitur. Please rephrase.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Syamsu, posted 09-20-2008 5:20 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 90 of 123 (483221)
09-20-2008 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by onifre
09-20-2008 6:21 PM


Ah I cant believe you really dont know anything, so I am just explaing this pro forma. A measurement device such as a speedometer in a car simply passes on the information from uh the axle or something. And so too people can measure objectively just passing along information. But then is the car going fast or slow, well that can be decided in the moment, choosing between fast or slow. And so there is new info of the car going fast or slow, while the car is just providing the same info.
But as before, parasitism is why people dont accept the spiritual. First you get the good people to invest meaning in a word like love, subjectively, then you get the bad people who parasite that meaning by for instance equating love with sex, objectifying love. And then the meaning of the word is consumed, and then they go on to the next victim. That has been going on since forever, except scientists are much more consistently evil this way, since they prize objectivity much more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by onifre, posted 09-20-2008 6:21 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Rrhain, posted 09-20-2008 8:22 PM Syamsu has replied
 Message 95 by onifre, posted 09-22-2008 6:59 PM Syamsu has replied

  
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