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Author Topic:   We know there's a God because...
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 181 of 256 (458857)
03-02-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Chiroptera
03-02-2008 1:50 PM


Every time I meet them. How did you know? As I said above, maybe I'm wierd.

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 256 (458859)
03-02-2008 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by bluegenes
03-02-2008 1:53 PM


Well, as Cold Foreign Object will remind you, if a given cloud looks like a bunny rabbit to every culture in Africa, then we must conclude that bunny rabbits live in the sky.
And you'd realize that if the Cosmic Bunny Rabbit wasn't punishing you for not believing in sky-dwelling bunny rabbits by removing your bunny rabbit sense.

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 183 of 256 (458861)
03-02-2008 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Buzsaw
03-02-2008 9:25 AM


Re: Does Established Evidence Exist?
And your rebuttal to the assertion is?
What is there to rebut? You said something was a fact but offered no support. Even if what you claimed, (all cultures have religion/superstitions), was true it does not provide evidence for the existence of the supernatural. As has been pointed out, many cultures have blamed diseases on bad juju and the truth is that they're caused by natural means.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 184 of 256 (458869)
03-02-2008 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Rob
03-02-2008 1:29 PM


Rob writes:
Not necessarily, it may just mean that mankind has crucified God...
But the OP asks what you might conclude from examining the world around us in the absence of religious texts. Is that what you would conclude, that God exists and that mankind has crucified Him?
... so as to stay in control as god himself
And not only conclude God exists and was crucified by mankind, but that we had done so in order to "stay in control as god himself," despite being buffeted by wars and disease.
I'm not following the logic.
--Percy

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 Message 177 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 1:29 PM Rob has replied

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 Message 191 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 5:04 PM Percy has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 185 of 256 (458870)
03-02-2008 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Rob
03-02-2008 1:02 PM


Re: We know there is a God because...
Well if you start a new topic in which you explain your thinking in relation to a simple practical example like the concept of 'red' I have previously detailed then I will be happy to take part.
I looked at the link and have a number of comments but I will raise these if and when we cover this in another thread rather then go against Admin's wishes in this one.
Anyone - How do I link to a previous post in the msg= format if I do not know the number of the forum/thread (or how do I find these out)??
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 186 of 256 (458874)
03-02-2008 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Chiroptera
03-02-2008 1:56 PM


Well, as Cold Foreign Object will remind you, if a given cloud looks like a bunny rabbit to every culture in Africa, then we must conclude that bunny rabbits live in the sky.
And you'd realize that if the Cosmic Bunny Rabbit wasn't punishing you for not believing in sky-dwelling bunny rabbits by removing your bunny rabbit sense.
I'm entirely too tempted to sig that.

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 Message 182 by Chiroptera, posted 03-02-2008 1:56 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 187 of 256 (458875)
03-02-2008 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Straggler
03-02-2008 2:39 PM


Re: We know there is a God because...
When typing a message into the message box, look at the links to the left of the box. One of them is for dBCodes help. Click on that.
--Percy

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 188 of 256 (458888)
03-02-2008 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by RAZD
03-02-2008 1:27 PM


Re: Problems from the start.
How would gravity be different in a created universe versus one that came about in the absence of a god? One could argue that in a chance formed universe that things would behave according to simple basic laws that could be easily determined, like Newtonian gravity, while in a created universe the closer you looked the more mystery was involved.
That's an interesting concept of 'simple' - based upon layman understanding of the surface of concepts? How exactly is Newtonian gravity simple? It's immensely complex, with fun things like transfinite singularities and no reasonable causal structure. Where-as the whole of GR was written down over breakfast by Hilbert in the astonishingly beautiful
One could argue that in a chance formed universe that things would be formed of simple particles, particles that are stable over time and different from energy, while in a created universe one can become the other at whim, and the closer you looked the more mystery was involved.
Your simple universe is the "God's plaything" universe I envisage in Genesis 1-2. Don't foget that your mystery is our "oh, of course. How simple, how aesthetic. Now we know, how could we have ever thought otherwise?"

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 189 of 256 (458895)
03-02-2008 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by cavediver
03-02-2008 3:35 PM


Re: Problems from the start.
It's immensely complex, with fun things like transfinite singularities and no reasonable causal structure.
Right - those transfinite singularities would not exist and there would be no causes. Things would just happen. Billiard balls. The simple universe would be like a cartoon of what we actually see. There would be no need for general relativity.
Don't foget that your mystery is our "oh, of course. How simple, how aesthetic. Now we know, how could we have ever thought otherwise?"
The point is that you can't argue that a created universe would be different from what you see, because you don't know whether it was created or not.
What it comes down to, is that any "predictions" of what the other kind of universe would be like, are all strawmen.
Where-as the whole of GR was written down over breakfast by Hilbert in the astonishingly beautiful
Ah, we can all go home now, job done. No more mysteries. Well done.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 190 of 256 (458896)
03-02-2008 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by RAZD
03-02-2008 4:21 PM


Re: Problems from the start.
The point is that you can't argue that a created universe would be different from what you see, because you don't know whether it was created or not.
What it comes down to, is that any "predictions" of what the other kind of universe would be like, are all strawmen.
I have no disagreement with this.
Ah, we can all go home now, job done. No more mysteries. Well done.
Huh?

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 191 of 256 (458899)
03-02-2008 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Percy
03-02-2008 2:39 PM


Percy:
But the OP asks what you might conclude from examining the world around us in the absence of religious texts. Is that what you would conclude, that God exists and that mankind has crucified Him?
No... it is what I would conclude in a world where religious texts do exist.
My point is a legitimate deduction in a world that does have religios texts. And that is the world we live in.
I simply do not know anything about a world without them. The speculation about it is utterly unscientific and irrelevant to me.
I gues I have nothing to cotribute to your speculation. Why do you want to know what we could conclude in a world without religious texts? Would it be relevant to this world?
If God exists, the only legitimate explanation for war and other evils... is that man has been given the dignity to freely choose his destiny and subsequently, he has in general, rejected God's counsel, prophets, and His personal incarnation as well.
Percy
And not only conclude God exists and was crucified by mankind, but that we had done so in order to "stay in control as god himself," despite being buffeted by wars and disease.
Yes, that's exactly right!
Jesus went so far as to make the case that even if a man were raised from the dead, 'they still would not believe'.
He appears to know us well.
There is nothing that god can dish out that will persuade a man who has made up his mind not to believe in God. Any consequenses man brings upon himself will immediately be used to prove that there is no Good God.
All you have to do is read the story of the Exodus to see how hard the heart of Egypt is. And Egypt is a metaphor for the world in general.
They might however, bow to a pantheistic god who does not threaten their diverse proclivities.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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 Message 184 by Percy, posted 03-02-2008 2:39 PM Percy has replied

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 Message 194 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 5:37 PM Rob has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 192 of 256 (458900)
03-02-2008 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Rob
03-02-2008 5:04 PM


Rob writes:
Percy:
But the OP asks what you might conclude from examining the world around us in the absence of religious texts. Is that what you would conclude, that God exists and that mankind has crucified Him?
So now you are asking me to make systematic studies of a world that does not exist?
The OP asks you to consider a hypothetical question, and I'm interpreting responses as if they were addressing this hypothetical. If you'd prefer not to address the hypothetical because it doesn't seem to make sense or seems flawed in some way then you only need one post to say that.
--Percy

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 Message 191 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 5:04 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 5:32 PM Percy has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 193 of 256 (458901)
03-02-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Percy
03-02-2008 5:26 PM


Percy:
The OP asks you to consider a hypothetical question, and I'm interpreting responses as if they were addressing this hypothetical. If you'd prefer not to address the hypothetical because it doesn't seem to make sense or seems flawed in some way then you only need one post to say that.
Of course...
I think that (hypothetically) in a world with no religious texts, we would live in a world without logical thought or consiousness.
In which case... I wouldn't be thinking at all.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 194 of 256 (458902)
03-02-2008 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Rob
03-02-2008 5:04 PM


To Text or Not to Text
My point is a legitimate deduction in a world that does have religious texts. And that is the world we live in.
I simply do not know anything about a world without them. The speculation about it is utterly unscientific and irrelevant to me.
A world without the bible or any other similar religious text has been the norm for the majority of human existence.
War and the various other evils under consideration still took place. How could the people be expected to draw the same conclusions that you consider so evident without the help of the texts you consider so fundamental to your way of thinking?
This is not unscientific speculation. It is history.
The world you talk of, in which the texts in question exist and are readily available and accessible to those who seek them out, is a very recent development in human culture.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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 Message 191 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 5:04 PM Rob has replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 195 of 256 (458912)
03-02-2008 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Rob
03-02-2008 5:32 PM


Rob writes:
think that (hypothetically) in a world with no religious texts, we would live in a world without logical thought or consiousness.
In which case... I wouldn't be thinking at all.
Just to make sure, so now you *are* addressing the hypothetical? Or is this just another way of saying the hypothetical makes no sense to you?
If you former, then am I correct to summarize your position this way: that the mere fact that you're conscious and can think indicates that there must be a God. If so, then what is it about your examination of the world around us that would lead you to this conclusion?
--Percy

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 Message 193 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 5:32 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 6:12 PM Percy has replied

  
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