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Author Topic:   Examples of non-Christian Moral systems.
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 241 of 296 (123380)
07-09-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Hangdawg13
07-09-2004 3:03 PM


Yes, I think I agree with that.
The only thing I would suggest though, is that we don't rule out the converse completely because;
"Similarly, a person who believes in Christ is a Christian."
Yet even satan believes in Christ, so is he a christian? No!!
So I think that those other definitions are needed.
However, it is a good point you made;
A person may be a Christian by re-birth, but fail as an ambassador for Christ.
YES!...so obviously the person has changed but not the definition of christian. So I think those accusing us of this "scotsman fallacy" are not fully observing what we are saying, and therefore, I think we are not using this fallacy. Because, I think it's fair to say that those who believe in Christ would naturally do as he says do, and THEN they might earn the title "christian".
Would you agree, you being a christian, (the horses mouth)- that adhering to what Christ says is always a part of being christian?
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-09-2004 02:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 3:03 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 5:57 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 244 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 07-10-2004 3:00 AM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 247 by nator, posted 07-11-2004 10:28 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 296 (123392)
07-09-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by mike the wiz
07-09-2004 2:47 PM


Mike writes:
I fI have ignored anything please give an in-depth explanation.
I hate repeating myself, Mike. Especially to someone who isn't listening. So enjoy the following encore presentation, with a special bonus feature at the end.
Me writes:
Once more, Mike. You are saying that the dictionary tells us that all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ, and that it does not follow that all who believe in Jesus as Christ are Christians. The logic is sound; the terms are not.
Because the dictionary is not telling us that all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ. (Although that may happen to be the case.) The presence of multiple definitions shows us that this is not the case, that there are different ways in which one can qualify as a Christian.
Therefore, what the dictionary is telling us is that all who believe in Jesus as Christ are Christian. This does not require flipping the statement around to say, "Aha! If all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ, then all who believe in Jesus as Christ must be Christians!" because the statement "all Christians believe in Jesus as Christ" NEVER ENTERS INTO THE FREAKIN' PICTURE.
I am not arguing the logic. I am arguing the base assumption on which the logical conclusion is founded.
So to sum up, you're just being an idiot.
To use your own example, you are saying that in order to be a planet, an object in space must be Earth, and Venus, and Pluto, and Mercury, and Mars, and Neptune, and Saturn, and Jupiter, and Uranus. Just being one of them isn't enough to make it a true planet. That the only way to convince you that just being Earth is enough to make the object a true planet is to show you that Earth is the only planet.
This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 07-09-2004 02:59 PM

"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by mike the wiz, posted 07-09-2004 2:47 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 243 of 296 (123429)
07-09-2004 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by mike the wiz
07-09-2004 3:19 PM


"Similarly, a person who believes in Christ is a Christian."
Yet even satan believes in Christ, so is he a christian? No!!
Very true.
I just read this from Shakespear's play A Merchant in Venice. Shakespear put's it far more eloquently than anyone I think.
"Mark you this, Bassanio,
The devil can cite scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek --
A goodly apple rotten at the heart:
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!"
Would you agree, you being a christian, (the horses mouth)- that adhering to what Christ says is always a part of being christian?
Absolutely.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-09-2004 04:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mike the wiz, posted 07-09-2004 3:19 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by mike the wiz, posted 07-10-2004 4:18 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 296 (123541)
07-10-2004 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by mike the wiz
07-09-2004 3:19 PM


To mike_the_wiz:
...and when someone successfully demonstrates how your reasoning is flawed, how your logic is unsound, how you are being ambiguous and idiosyncratic, how you are ignoring opposing arguments, how you are feigning ignorance, how you are not making sense, or how you fit the definition of a *cough* bigot *cough*, you simply shut your eyes, muff your ears and chants: "This is not happening, this is not happening...." while ignoring their posts.
My posts in the "Prayers vs. Divine Plan" and "Lucifer/Satan is bad" threads require your attention. Please don't make me ask you again.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mike the wiz, posted 07-09-2004 3:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 245 of 296 (123578)
07-10-2004 10:12 AM


topic take-over
why is whenever people want to discuss moral systems from a variety of sources ...
.... the christians always make it a discussion about them?

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 07-11-2004 5:57 PM RAZD has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 246 of 296 (123648)
07-10-2004 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Hangdawg13
07-09-2004 5:57 PM


So we've established that adhering to Christ's words is always a part of being christian. And believing in Christ is INDEED always a part of being christian. (Afterall, I admitted the contra-positive would be; NO belief in Christ = no christian) So I feel by saying those things that I have now tried to half agree with Dan.
Yet, one who adheres to his words, may not necessarily be one. For example, I think Loudmouth says he follows his teachings somewhat, yet he is not a christian.
In the same way with the satan example. One may believe in him, but not follow what he says. Though I still think most who "profess" to believe in him, and murder etc..are just liars.
This means that it must take both A"adhering" and B"believing" to be a Christian.
A + B = C
A = C, not necessarily
B = C, not necessarily. A + B seem to make C.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-10-2004 03:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-09-2004 5:57 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-12-2004 10:11 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 247 of 296 (123732)
07-11-2004 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by mike the wiz
07-09-2004 3:19 PM


quote:
Would you agree, you being a christian, (the horses mouth)- that adhering to what Christ says is always a part of being christian?
So, is willowtree a christian?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mike the wiz, posted 07-09-2004 3:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 07-11-2004 11:18 AM nator has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 248 of 296 (123735)
07-11-2004 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by nator
07-11-2004 10:28 AM


Yes as is Buz and mike and b2b and almeyda and arky and rr and ...

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by nator, posted 07-11-2004 10:28 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by nator, posted 07-12-2004 7:02 PM jar has replied

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 296 (123778)
07-11-2004 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by RAZD
07-10-2004 10:12 AM


Re: topic take-over
lol, how true that is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by RAZD, posted 07-10-2004 10:12 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by RAZD, posted 07-11-2004 6:11 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 250 of 296 (123782)
07-11-2004 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Rand Al'Thor
07-11-2004 5:57 PM


Re: topic take-over
It always has to be me me me ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 07-11-2004 5:57 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2004 6:16 PM RAZD has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 251 of 296 (123783)
07-11-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by RAZD
07-11-2004 6:11 PM


Re: topic take-over
Why "non-christian" then? Why not "none-muslim" or "none-buddhist".
If we have hi-jacked the topic, is probably because of attacks on us anyway. We are counter attacking.
Go Ullrich!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by RAZD, posted 07-11-2004 6:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 07-11-2004 6:22 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 07-11-2004 6:32 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 252 of 296 (123786)
07-11-2004 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by mike the wiz
07-11-2004 6:16 PM


Re: topic take-over
The purpose was explained in the first post.
A claim is often made, usually by fundametalist and literal interpretationist Christians that it is impossible to have a moral system without the Christian GOD.
This is not an attack on Christianity, although that has certainly intruded.
There are many, many examples of non-Christian Moral Systems. Notably the followers of Buddha, Mencius, Confucius as well as the Atheistic systems that appearto be as effective, in some ways more effective, than the Christian religion. Hopefully we can return to examining those systems.
If Christianity or any of the three Judaic Religions are brought into the discussion, hopefully it will be simply to show parallels or differences.
I hope that you can contribute some concrete examples.
Edited to add:
Mike:
How familiar are you with Buddhism?
This message has been edited by jar, 07-11-2004 05:25 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2004 6:16 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2004 6:32 PM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 253 of 296 (123789)
07-11-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
07-11-2004 6:22 PM


Re: topic take-over
Listen Jar, I'm sure there are many none-christian moral systems. And yes, I've heard good things about Budhism, from abbyleever...., but if someone takes this topic and turns it around onto the christians, then obviously I'm going to defend. However, I must wonder why it is that you promote none-christian ways. Christ, if anyone, cannot be beat on morals. To love ones enemy AND neighbour, would be to remove totally, all conflict in this world. THAT is what I promote. Why aren't you? Infact why do you seems to argue for atheistic type things?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 07-11-2004 6:22 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by jar, posted 07-11-2004 6:49 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 254 of 296 (123790)
07-11-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by mike the wiz
07-11-2004 6:16 PM


Re: topic take-over
just trying to noodge this back on topic
(armstrong rules ... with mountain evidence ...)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2004 6:16 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2004 6:35 PM RAZD has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 255 of 296 (123792)
07-11-2004 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by RAZD
07-11-2004 6:32 PM


Re: topic take-over
Only cos Jan has never regained true 1997 form. As we seen his little power demonstration in the mountains last year, after he ripped Lance a new butthole in that time trial. Now this is off topic. I vote that I should be banned for 30 days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 07-11-2004 6:32 PM RAZD has not replied

  
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