Original Sin

This is what I have understood to be the case too, even from the orthodox point of view. In fact I have an orthodox Jewish internet friend I pepper with such questions, and this is pretty much the answer he has given me -- and he usually supplies orthodox Jewish websites for reference.So, Randman, do you have some references to Jewish sources that believe in some version of the Fall or OS?This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 07:17 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 07:18 PM

Original sin - WikipediaIf one believes mankind fell from a level of glory, that is a form of believing in the Fall, and is clearly the belief of aspects of Judaism.This message has been edited by randman, 01-02-2006 03:05 AM

This is almost the exact same position as Arminians like Wesley when they speak of Original Sin, but this is given as a Jewish position. Clearly, many Jewish beliefs entail the idea mankind has suffered as a result of Adam's sin. Page not found - aish.comLooks like the first sin did some serious damage to the rest of mankind according to this Jewish site.

OK, those are good examples, thanks. SOME kind of Fall is hinted at there. I wonder what Ramoss will say about it.

There is a difference between the "Doctrine of Original Sin" and saying that Adam's sin affected mankind. Judaism’s Rejection Of Original Sin does not mean they don't think Adam's actions affected mankind. They do feel it lowered man's status, but they do not believe that man is born into this world in a state of sin. As ramoss pointed out in Message 77 the Jews do not believe that sin is inherited, which is what is implied by the "Doctrine of Original Sin."The information you shared from the internet shows that Jews believe that Adam's sin affected mankind, not that every person is born sinful, which is what is implied by the "Doctrine of Original Sin."We are equipped with good inclinations and bad inclinations and just as God told Cain. Having a lower status does not mean born with sin.Do you understand the difference?

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

Clearly there is a difference between the conceptions, but if "Adam's sin affected mankind" how could it affect us except through inheritance? That something changed in the basic human package with Adam's sin does seem to be implied, whether Jewish theology draws this conclusion or not. And if something in our inherited makeup changed with Adam's sin, and this was a "lower status" isn't this status a status involving our moral capacities, and if so, isn't the doctrine of original sin pretty much implicit here?

Let's look at it this way.Your great grandfather inherited million dollars (which was a lot of money from back then. He, alas, was a gambler, and lost it all, rather than invest it wisely, and also get his kids a good education.The next generation was dirt poor, and had no education.. and was kept down.THe SIN of excess and gambling effected the starting point of the kids.. but they were innocent of the excess and gambling. It is just they didn't have the resources to start out with.SOme of kids managed to earn their way to a reasonable income, but they never were as wealthy as before. Did they inherit the 'sin' of being excessive and a gambler?? Nope. Were they affected by the wastefullness of their father?? Yep. They didn't live in a grandious
mansion when growing up.. but had to earn their living.. as their children did after them.

This is my understanding:Man was created with an equal balance of good and evil. 50/50After Adam sinned, supposedly evil increased so there was now an imbalance (51/49). So now it is supposedly more difficult for man to overcome his evil inclination, not impossible, but more difficult.Sin, as ramoss explained, means to miss the mark. You can't inherit sin or a mistake. You may inherit the propensity to sin, but that doesn't mean you will sin.I don't see the lower status as dealing with moral capacities, since Adam still made a wrong choice at the higher status. I see it as losing ground. He has to work harder to reach perfection.Rough Example: There is a wealthy family of 5. They are all basicly good people. The father makes a mistake which causes him to loose all his money. Now the rest of the family didn't make any mistake, but they will suffer from the father's mistake.Now that they are destitute, their status in the community has changed. They now have to work harder to survive day to day. This doesn't mean the children inherit their father's mistake, but if they wish to reach the status they had before, they will have to work harder.Adam lost everything because of his mistake, now we struggle day to day to survive and have to work harder to attain perfection.I feel there is more to the Doctrine of Original Sin than just the increase of evil.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

You did a better job of explaining than I did.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

It is the same anaology though..

The problem is that we're not talking about something like money that we inherit externally, but something that is IN us, that gets passed on from generation to generation in our very nature. This change in human moral standing has to be inherited genetically or the idea that we are changed is meaningless.

But the point is that we DO genetically inherit this changed propensity to sin, which is all the doctrine of original sin is saying too.

That is not what the doctrine of Original sin says. The Jewish conception is that everyone is born innocent.The Jewish concept is that we also inherit the propensity to DO GOOD. Judiasm sees man as essentially good, and not essentially evil.

why is it meaningless? because you can't conseave of the fall not changing us somehow without it being genetic? From all that I've read about it, it says we were at a level of closeness to god then adam messed up, and god lowered mans status from one with god to trying to get back thereI mean on many websites and books thats what they say that man was at a level where god directly communicated with man in person, then adam sinned and now our job is to get back to that level, or higherThis message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-03-2006 12:24 AMThis message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-03-2006 12:25 AM

The point is that this condition of lowered status becomes the condition of all Adam's descendants. How does that happen except through genetic inheritance?This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 01:35 AM