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Author Topic:   Has anyone in this forum changed evo/creo sides?
debbyglee
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 83 (89559)
03-01-2004 11:16 AM


Hi,
I'm new here. I've been lurking a bit, and have seen one or two posts that indicate their authors have switched sides on the evo/creo debate. Is that a common occurance? They both seem to have become evo devotees. I'm curious; does it ever go the other way? Has anyone discarded evolution and become a creationist? Notice, please, I'm not talking about faith/belief or not in God; I'm just interested in evolution vs. creationism.
thanks!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by truthlover, posted 03-01-2004 3:50 PM debbyglee has replied
 Message 3 by Yaro, posted 03-01-2004 3:56 PM debbyglee has not replied
 Message 5 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-01-2004 4:19 PM debbyglee has not replied
 Message 16 by Brad McFall, posted 03-02-2004 9:35 AM debbyglee has replied
 Message 74 by Corkscrew, posted 03-15-2004 10:12 AM debbyglee has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 2 of 83 (89609)
03-01-2004 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by debbyglee
03-01-2004 11:16 AM


Is that a common occurance?
It's pretty rare.
They both seem to have become evo devotees.
If you see someone switch because of an internet debate forum, it will always be from creo to evo. If you're wondering why, just stick around and compare the quality of posts between the two sides.
I'm curious; does it ever go the other way? Has anyone discarded evolution and become a creationist?
If someone converts from evo to creo, it will be because they "got saved" through some experience having nothing to do with evolution-creation debate. Their new religious mindset can get them to ignore the evidence.
I switched from creo to evo because I got slaughtered in debate on the CompuServe forums back in 1995. I convinced my wife, and then I joined a church/village/community that all lives together on one piece of land, and almost all of us have switched to the evo side.
The internet is a terrific source of information. Sure, a lot of it is false, but those who are looking can almost always find both sides of an argument on the internet and decide for themselves. The anti-evolution side is slowly losing ground, according to statistics, and the reason, according only to my opinion, is the internet and the way it provides information. It's a lot harder for the creo side to...uh......um.....uh....distort (yeah, that's a good word) with the internet around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by debbyglee, posted 03-01-2004 11:16 AM debbyglee has replied

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 3 of 83 (89612)
03-01-2004 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by debbyglee
03-01-2004 11:16 AM


Hmmmm...
I don't think anyone has ever switchd from creo to evo. I know Mike the Wiz has become less 'hardline' creationist. Phatboy and mesenjah have also seemed to loosen up their stance a bit.
One of the few conversions I witnesed on this site was a mormon fellow who gave up on mormanisim in the face of overwhelming evidence. He was still a christian though... I think...
But that's all I can remember.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by debbyglee, posted 03-01-2004 11:16 AM debbyglee has not replied

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 4 of 83 (89616)
03-01-2004 4:09 PM


It took about 3 yrs.
I read, studied, cried. debated, clinched my fist and gnashed my teeth..but after about 3 years I began to accept the fact that my staunch Catholic upbringing was a good thing but the religion of my childhood could not be reconciled with the current revelations of the modern times I live in. So I still believe in God, just not the literal Bible.

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 83 (89618)
03-01-2004 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by debbyglee
03-01-2004 11:16 AM


Debbyglee,
The rules by which people decide what is true are called epistemology. Creo's, because they respect the Bible, more or less, take from that book an epistemology that says basically that it is good to change your mind, to repent. Thus, they are prepared for the normal scientific process, whereby theories are shown to be "wrong" and replaced by better theories. Evos, on the other hand, are more vulnerable to the normal human condition of being opinionated. Even those with scientific training often focus on science as what you know instead of science as how you learn. They can look squarely at the history of science, how say, Newtonian Mechanics were basically disproved by quantum and relativistic mechanics, even though richly confirmed by evidence and still useful in application. Newton is still regarded as a great scientist. The "disproof" of his theory is seen as normal science. Evos can look at that story, and still operate as if evolution will never be similarly disproved by good science. But of course, it will, with Darwin still respected as a great contributor to the process.
So, you won't see as many evos as creos changing their minds. Too bad. The new theories that blend the best, and discard the worst, of both classical evolution and traditional creation, will of course be a delight to those who can change their mind to accept them. I like to call the new theory, evolition, in honor of evolution's important role in breaking us intellectually away from some pretty dysfunctional creationist ideas.
Good question. Thanks for asking.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by debbyglee, posted 03-01-2004 11:16 AM debbyglee has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 03-01-2004 5:33 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied
 Message 9 by truthlover, posted 03-01-2004 6:18 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
debbyglee
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 83 (89621)
03-01-2004 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by truthlover
03-01-2004 3:50 PM


Thank you all for your replies
The mix here of religious belief with beliefs about evolution vs. creation is just incredible. I can't remember ever seeing the sheer variety displayed on this board.
And you do so little flaming. Really, considering the explosive nature of the subject matter, most of you are paragons of posting virtue.
Frankly, this board is overwhelming and has shattered some of my own little unrecognized prejudices, which existed all over the scientific and theological map. Not so much about belief or evolution; let's call them the parents of some of my pet stereotypes of people, for your help here I give you my deepest thanks. Stereotypes are always ugly, and I'm not proud I had them.
If those of you who have switched sides, either way, remember any particular point of argument or experience that precipitated that switch, I'd love to hear about it. If you have discussed it in another topic and don't want to reiterate, please point me there!
[This message has been edited by debbyglee, 03-01-2004]
[This message has been edited by debbyglee, 03-01-2004]

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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 7 of 83 (89633)
03-01-2004 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-01-2004 4:19 PM


The Bizarro World of Stephen ben Yeshua
Stephen,
I love what passes for logic in Fretworld. Do you really believe reliance on the Bible makes people more likely to change their minds? I'd say it's just the opposite, that believing that there is Absolute Unchanging Objective Truth makes it extremely difficult to see the subtleties and ambiguities that blur the hard lines of reality. Creos turn evo when they finally understand that the battle between religion and science is as ridiculous as a fight between a lion and a shark. If their faith strengthens along with their curiosity about nature, they'll develop a realistic outlook toward scientific inquiry. It's only the wackos who will still be howling that evolution is wrong because it doesn't give glory to God, and the ex-creos will be laughing at them along with the rest of us.
What you say about Newton is true. He was wrong, and everyone who claims to know about science should realize this. However, his theory was not displaced by supernaturalist horseshit like yours, it was replaced by a theory that explained everything Newton's did and more. In other words, good science. This is why I can't believe you even grasp the philosophy of science, let alone that you (ahem) taught the subject to actual students. Stop blaming the Blind Defenders of the Outmoded Paradigm for the fact that your ravings don't constitute science (despite your vacuous mantra 'epistemology hypothetico-deduction Bayes theorem') and get it through your head that evolution is here to stay until something better comes along.
regards,
Esteban "H.D. Dawg" Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-01-2004 4:19 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by AdminTL, posted 03-01-2004 6:03 PM MrHambre has replied

  
AdminTL
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 83 (89642)
03-01-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
03-01-2004 5:33 PM


Paragons of posting virtue
MrHambre,
It seems obvious that Stephen is very good at getting under the skin of otherwise calm posters (well, at least somewhat calm ).
Even when it's Stephen, though, there are certain lines you should avoid crossing. I'm hoping not to have to quote the specific comments. Could you just tone it down?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 03-01-2004 5:33 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 9 of 83 (89645)
03-01-2004 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-01-2004 4:19 PM


It's kind of a bummer to have to post as a moderator, when I already really wanted to comment on the same subject as a member. Well, I'm just going to do it.
Creo's, because they respect the Bible, more or less, take from that book an epistemology that says basically that it is good to change your mind, to repent.
While I certainly understand why you would wish this was true, I'm pretty shocked you would suggest this is true. Years of theological battles, before I ever faced an evolution-creation battle, convinced me that it's a rare Bible-believer who will change his mind on anything, no matter how directly the Bible contradicts it. Looking at the evolution-creation debate has only confirmed that opinion, not changed it.
Special Creationists, from what I've seen, are the least likely people I've ever met to change their mind on anything theological, especially their beliefs on creation.
By creo's, are you maybe referring to anyone who believes God created all things? In that case, you should let us know who you mean. Theistic evolutionists (for lack of a better term) are not normally referred to as creo's, though they are definitely a more open-minded brand of creationist.
I only think I've put my finger on your view, which is that evolution happened, but that it was engineered all the way by God or demons. If that's who you mean by creo's, then you've really got to define that, because those with your view (assuming I even have your view right) are pretty rare (you're the only person I know of, although I am sure there are others).
Anyway, having met you and gotten a small feel for you, I've been deciphering some of your other posts, and I think I at least understand why you say what you say. Here, though, I'm clueless. I can't figure out why you would suggest that "Creo's, because they respect the Bible...take from that book an epistemology that says basically that it is good to change your mind." Using your terminology, I've conducted hundreds of experiments on that hypothesis, and its plausibility, IMHO, is exactly equal with the likelihood that Santa Claus is real.
Finally, the two most likely reasons I can see for more creationists switching than evolutionists are one, that the evidence is on the side of evolution, and two, that creationists are more open-minded, as you have suggested. As someone who believes in descent with modification (you did say that, right?) I can't see how you could choose the second of those reasons over the first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-01-2004 4:19 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-01-2004 11:42 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 03-02-2004 1:11 AM truthlover has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 10 of 83 (89656)
03-01-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AdminTL
03-01-2004 6:03 PM


Re: Paragons of posting virtue
All right, apologies to Stephen and anyone else offended by my rudeness. I guess I should take the hint that I'm not going to get anywhere with Dr. ben Yeshua, or nowhere either of us wants to go.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AdminTL, posted 03-01-2004 6:03 PM AdminTL has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-01-2004 10:37 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 83 (89686)
03-01-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by MrHambre
03-01-2004 7:55 PM


Re: Paragons of posting virtue
MrHambre,
It's good to unload the stuff on our chests, that get in the way of quaffing a few brews together. Apology accepted, with the hope that you'll accept mine of sending out my THYSOB's. I'm supposed to be somewhere else, you see, so I get out of control....
But, your posts usually make me smile, though I have no idea why.
Stephen, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by MrHambre, posted 03-01-2004 7:55 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 83 (89690)
03-01-2004 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Yaro
03-01-2004 3:56 PM


I think Sonic claimed to have changed his mind from creo to something else but it seemed a bit too easy for me to be all that sure he did.

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Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 83 (89694)
03-01-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by truthlover
03-01-2004 6:18 PM


TL,
First of all, thanks for helping me remember that MrHambre makes me smile, before he makes me mad.
Now, to the main point of your post:
Finally, the two most likely reasons I can see for more creationists switching than evolutionists are one, that the evidence is on the side of evolution, and two, that creationists are more open-minded, as you have suggested. As someone who believes in descent with modification (you did say that, right?) I can't see how you could choose the second of those reasons over the first.
This is an astute, to me, analysis. My own experience, back in the early 70's, was that creos converted to evolution (accepting and loving me, who was teaching evolution) way more often than evos converted to creationism, which I was at the time pondering. I, meanwhile, having been prepared by Henry Horn and other truly great scientists, was trying to blend the two theories, and did, to my satisfaction at least.
The problem is, we are dealing with a very, very small subset of either group. Creos who are bible quoters are in my experience as in yours, astonishingly hard-headed and stiff-necked. Not really much fun to be with. But, the few exceptions really do change. Evos, not bible quoters, are often good for bull sessions and hearty times, but almost none can really change their minds. How can they? They haven't been taught how, nor are in any program that teaches good epistemology. Thus, (statistical model coming up) the average stubborness of creos is greater than that of evos, as you note, but the variance is higher. So the area under the curve below the "Ah-Ha Erlebnitz (sp?)" (C'mon Mammathus, help us out here!) that precedes a true revelation and mind change is greater for creos than that for the evos.
Of course, the evidence plays a great role in both sides of this question. I changed my mind (this for Debbieglee) when my prayer experiment for my incurably neurotic daughter brought her back to my arms in joy. I suddenly knew that "we are not alone" and that the "Other" out there was not leaving most or any of descent through modification to natural selection. When I brought this evidence to my evo colleagues, they shut down. When I brought the evolutionary evidence to my creo friends, they listened. I think that there is evidence going both ways. But the average evos, I agree, do a better job than the average creos, in dealing with evidence. Less stubborn. There are just more creo extremes than evo extremes.
But for me, when I learned that both sides, Jehovah and Darwin, wanted us to consider the evidence, I knew I was safe. I went back to my philosophy of science course with renewed vigor, and taught my best students how to be great scientists (which they are!). I saw that the evidence, though necessary, isn't enough. You have to know the rules to open your mind to the evidence. You have to know, be taught, that being human or holy, means adapting, changing your mind. It's obvious, sorta, but being human means having a teacher tell you what you already know, too.
The creos get more of this "change your mind" teaching than the evos, more's the pity. It's an accident, maybe grace, that the deeply opinionated creos teach this, but there it is. I have no hope of getting even more creos to teach this, but maybe the evos....I was an evo when I learned, and first taught it. The rules for getting the truth.
It's a great question for me, TL. Thank you. I hope and pray someone besides myself got something out my attempt to consider it.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by truthlover, posted 03-01-2004 6:18 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by truthlover, posted 03-02-2004 8:46 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 14 of 83 (89709)
03-02-2004 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by truthlover
03-01-2004 6:18 PM


What classification am I?
Could one of you guys define the beliefs of a theistic evolutionist? I do not know what I am. I believe in God and that He is often directly present in human affairs. I do not believe in the Bible literally, such as 6000 years, literal flood that wiped out all live except one family, and literal Tower of Babel...but wait. I DO believe that all speech was changed, and that all life except one lineage was wiped out at the Flood. I just do not think that the stories have to be literal. They could be parables to describe supernatural actuality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by truthlover, posted 03-01-2004 6:18 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-02-2004 1:38 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 18 by debbyglee, posted 03-02-2004 6:31 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 20 by truthlover, posted 03-02-2004 8:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 83 (89712)
03-02-2004 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
03-02-2004 1:11 AM


Re: What classification am I?
Phatboy,
The term, evolution was defined to describe Darwinism, the origin of species by natural selection. The idea of Theism is that some higher being is out there. Theistic evolution says that there is a higher being, but that He does not and did not meddle in the common descent of modern life forms, which came about through natural selection. If you believe that (a passive God and natural selection), you are a theistic evolutionist, or believe in theistic evolution.
If you believe that God is out there, and intervenes in the production of biological diversity with a creative purpose, you believe in creation. If you feel that you have to believe this, no matter what happens or what evidence you might see,(have this peculiar notion of faith), you are a creationist. Or, if you believe that evolution happened, and there is no way you can be convinced otherwise, you are an evolutionist. If the theory of evolution attracts you, and you sense that there are some really good points, but maybe some creation took place too, who knows? Then, you believe in evolution, but are not an evolutionist.
(the -ist suffix harks back to God naming Himself as "I am." Attaching some form of the verb "to be" to an idea makes that idea God-like in your mind. -ist for example. Without that suffix, you are expressing that you consider the idea plausible, but not certain)
Evolition is the idea that biologic diversity originated by artificial selection, genetic engineering, and any other willfull, creative activity by a personal being, man, angel, or God.
Belief in and honoring of a creator God, while accepting the evident common descent, ancient process of producing biologic diversity, would be theistic evolition.
Truthists believe that truth is out there, to be approached by various applied epistemological strategies, including the scientific method, and prophecy.
You know about YEC'ers, with the weird notion of a young earth. I know of no title for those who believe in an old earth and evolition, which was destroyed by Satan many years ago, but miraculously restored 6000 years ago, in seven days. Right would work for me.
Cheers,
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
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