Perfection of man. Or imperfection of God

Yes, I would. If the imperfect God wasn't going in a good direction, then I wouldn't follow it either. If it could convince me that it was heading in the right direction, then I would know that it was. Huh... wrong again. You seem to have a horrible tendency to assume the wrong thing.If I were God I certianly would tolerate competition. In fact, I would promote such things. I would want the people of earth to have many different choices. I would be so proud when they actually chose the right ones. Of course, being me, I also wouldn't be mad if they chose the wrong ones. If they at least tried, anyway. This God you're describing seems... mentally unstable. Or perhaps he is just childish and needs to mature.

Really.Regards
DL.

Yes, really. I'm not saying I want to be God, or that I even wish to be God. But you gave me the situation "Would you want competition if you were God". And yes, if I were God I would want competition. If I suddenly found out I was responsible for billions of self-conscious lives, I would want to nurture their freedom of choice and help them grow to become a growing, complex, loving society.In order to do that, I can't spoonfeed them. I can't give them rules and expect them to follow. I need to let them figure things out for themselves. If I got involved too much, if I try to force them to do things too much, they would no longer be free-thinking, free-willed individuals. And then their choice to follow me would be meaningless. In order to have them figure things out for themselves, I need to provide many different options to them. In the form of equally-feasible alternatives. Then I sit back and hope that they choose "the right ones".Granted, some of them are going to choose those other alternatives. But, as long as they're using their talents, and trying to make the best decisions they can... I can't fault them for that, nor would I be upset in anyway. Once they died, and I met them, I'd be all... "Heh... thought you were onto something there, eh? Yeah? Actually, no... Good try though, chances are I'd go for that myself if I lived your life. Welcome to the real next-level, friend." Yes. A God who cannot stand for any competition, or who cannot deal with a well-thought out, scrutinized decision that doesn't happen to line up with their ideals 100%... is a bit of an immature God. It just seems like a child who's not getting their way. They have no reason to offer why they should have their way, nor can they understand that not all people have the same thoughts-feelings-emotions-needs-wants as they do. Anything (even a God) that cannot understand the simple concept that "people are different" seems rather childish to me.

DL,If you want to start with a nice philosophical thought about how all things work together for good, fine. It is not a thought that is alien to most people. It is not even so suprememly difficult to grasp as you seem to imagine.The one thing that you are not doing is proving yourself. You are not proving that there is no duality of purpose. You are not proving that some things are just plain wrong in spite of the happy consequences for others who learned from them. Salvation isn't about what I learn from Hitler's mistakes. That is just passing the buck on to the next person and the next generation. You will imply that the damnation of one is 'good' if equals the salvation of another.Where is this going to get you honestly? We are all doing 'perfectly' and we will all be rewarded for hurting other people because this is what God needed us to do right now. What is the point in even trying to improve?This thought process of yours properly exposed is nothing more than a predeterministic NON-Christian belief. You are entitled to it. But seriously, if God came right now and saw all things as perfect, doesn't this mean that we all did the right thing even when we did the wrong thing? Doesn't it mean that whatever we choose to do will be good no matter what? I have a hard time seeing how you would even bring this up as Bible study.Oh well...just get some more evidence in here. Tell us why it is impossible that God could have given free-will to do evil, and how it is impossible that He could come back and see some people actually doing it. Your astounding theory of all things having purpose is cute...it doesn't by far make all things perfect or even good. No one has to believe in God or the Bible, but if you are going to bother with it, the least you can do is let it make sense. Follow thru with your theology, Ask yourself what the point is in doing good if everything already is perfect.

Have fun

If something is perfect, it can't get better. By definition, that is true. 'Greater perfection' is an oxymoron.PS: Babies do not evolve. They grow, they acclimatize, but they do not evolve.

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I refer you to your comment re the existence of evil So, let's look at this logically.1. A perfect god can only create perfection.
2. All things were created by God.
3. From 2, Satan (the evil god) was created by God.
4. From 1 and 3, Satan is a perfect God, like God Himself.
5. God will not tolerate competition.
6. Therefore, God cannot have created Satan or let him continue to exist. Thus, 3 must be false.
7. Satan continues to exists, this either 7 or 5 must be wrong.That make more sense? Let's try another.1. This argument (above) is not perfect.
2. Perfection can only create perfect.
3. God is perfect.
4. I was created by God.
5. Thus, I am perfect (from 2, 3 and 4).
6. I created this argument.
7. Thus, this argument is perfect (from 2, 5 and 6). Thus, either 1 is not true or one of 2,4 or 6 is not true.

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There are many wrong ways and only one right way for most issues.
Having Gods debate over the right way would be silly.A ship can only have one master. That's why we have the first commandment.Regards
DL

Most people see a world of conflict, they do not see the hidden cooperation that is present. Ask anyone if the world is basically good or evil and evil is usually the choice taken.
They do not see a world in balance.In my reality there is no need for salvation. Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin. We all get to Heaven otherwise it shows some kind of defect with God's ability to make Perfect souls.We are given a nature at birth. God wants us to follow this nature to wherever it leads. If it is good that is fine. If it is evil then coming from God, it to is perfect and should be followed. If there are lessons to be learned, and there are then we must have teachers as well as students.Free will is just what it is, free will. To do good, to do evil, to do nothing. It is what it is. Follow your will or your bliss and do whatever your nature tells you to do. We all know that there are requirements of thought to gain entry to Heaven. These are well documented.God started the system with the tree of good and evil in place. He said it was good. I will believe His version of good before I switch to your version of good.Evil, like good, wants to grow. If good does not express itself then evil, being the only example will be emulated. To even stay equal, good must exert itself. If good people do nothing, evil grows. Who said that first, Kennedy?Regards
DL

The word Satan is a catch all word to encompass all of the woes of the world. Satan has no physical reality. There are no talking snakes or fish that spit out men after three days in reality.
Satan then cannot compete with God. How can ideas compete.Perfection allows for evolving. A baby is born Perfect for the world it is born into. The child evolves to whatever conditions it finds.Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin. There is no more sin in the old sence of the word and yet the Churches denigrate Jesus by baptism. Strange no. A reminder to the churches of their poor memories is always good. They have even forgotten the Perfection of God.Not to keep beating the point but for me, if imperfection can be found anywhere in our systems then God cannot exist. I see perfection at present when I look around. If I could see anything imperfect, then I would change my mind.Regards
DL

Why is that? Having one single being decide what is always right/wrong is silly. What if that being is wrong? And there are good masters of ships, and bad ones. Mutiny generally gets the better of the bad ones. The good ones are good because they respect the points of view of their shipmates. They debate the issues with others on the ship before making a decision.If they don't debate the issues, or make too many wrong decisions... they don't last long as captain, neither do they deserve the title.

Really? Go look at the 'Morality Decreasing with Time' thread.That is still irrelevent really to your problem. It may be that people feel this way, or it may not. Not important. What is important is whether you can prove that you are right. So there was a need for salvation at one point.Yet now we are all going to heaven.OK. OK.So, explain THIS!!!!!! So these requirements of thought, hm. What are they? Are they requirements to get to heaven? I thought you said we were all going.1. we all get to heaven
2. there are requirements for heaven
3. it follows that we all fulfill these requirements automaticallyTherefore God does not need to tell of these things, God does not need to tell us of salvation, the entire NT is not relevent except as a story, and you are basing your life on only the first few sentences of Genesis.

I would say that by His name He cannot be wrong. If he is wrong then he cannot be God.I think that being a good master is to also make hard choices. Including excluding debate if no further good can be attained by debate or if there is just no time.Regards
DL

Okay, I will accept this assumption. But, how do we communicate with God? How do we know someone is not just saying they are "representing" God? Because, obviously, many different people have done this, and even done it so well that people have given their lives for such deceptions.If something is from God, and it is absolutely right, it would stand to reason that absolutely no one would possibly disagree with it, no? I mean, if one single person disagrees with it, isn't it possible to get a solution that's better? That is, that even this one last person would agree with it? Or at least see the wisdom in it? Wouldn't a perfect God be capable of producing a solution that no one would disagree with, or be able to find a flaw with?If that were the case... the simple fact that two people don't agree on an interpretation, or what should be done would show that God hasn't actually said anything on the matter. Because if he did, surely both would agree that it was the right thing to do. I think you are correct, if you agree that this is an aspect of a good master. That is, it is one thing he does in certain times and places. However, a master that only uses this tool, and never uses any other, expecially debating and developing options for courses of action... that would be a very bad master.Similarily, a bad master would never allow discussion of their choices of action. Even if it is after the fact. A good master would foster such discussions, if only to prove that they would have been open to better solutions if they had of been available at the time.

I appreciate that at some point in time , we all do things that would not be considered moral or ethical. In the physical world that we live in, there are laws in place to deal with the severity of the infraction. In the world of God there is no sin because Jesus paid for them. I am not sure whether or not Jesus really had to do this because God would have taken on that burden right from the beginning. Perhaps we had forgotten with that original sin in place.
Populations are rising and more seek God than ever before. From God’s point of view, with all else in balance, things are good.Heaven, I believe, has always been open to all. A God that is worth His salt will no create imperfection to clutter up the Perfection of Heaven. He started with everything Perfect and His and He will end with the same Perfection. God, if able to create imperfection would not allow this imperfection to live. He does not make mistakes. God is a God of inclusion. God is a greedy God He will not loose any of His realm.I am not sure of all the steps that God will take to make sure Heaven is always bigger than a non existing hell or how he will move us all that way except for end time revelation.Christians should hurry this process if possible.Regards
DL