Perfection of man. Or imperfection of God

I think that we live in a balanced universe and world.
How God chooses to balance things I don't always perceive.
Anything that we perceive as imperfect must in it's own way be doing the Perfect thing in terms of the wishes of God.
But really, would you follow a imperfect God.Regards
DL

I would not call the Holocaust a good thing.
It still retains it's evil nature but exists as a good teaching tool.
If we are to learn of good and evil then we must know what we address.
I think this is why Eve did the right thing. Otherwise we would be no smarter than the beast of the field, not knowing good and evil.
Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin. There is no Heavenly penalty for sin but there is still a path to follow. Jesus said He is the way therefore we still need love, morality and a good heart to enter heaven.Regards
DL

There is a lot of contradiction in any Bible, many things to be questioned.
We question from a position of original sin an d the fact that we are all sinners.If we can no longer call ourselves sinners, thanks to the death of Jesus, then what have we now become.You ended your remark with He isn't really God. I have ended many discussions with the same phrase in showing that a God who Cannot create Perfection is not a God.God by, His very nature must be Perfect, and can produce only Perfect works.If any believe in a God with less power then we will not agree on many things. Our reality started Perfect and we go on in this same state. It is up to us to recognize this condition. Look around, you will see some Perfection. Try a newborn.Regards
DL

God would need to have the best and worse of all adjectives we can give.
The system we are in is a perfect environment at all times. God should be able to come back at any time and say look at the perfect works.
Any God who could not say that would be a false God.Regards
DL

I lost my reply with quote button.We are not responsible for the sins of our forefathers.
We do not gain from there good deeds, why should we suffer for their mistakes.We did inherit the system that Eve started us on, thank God she made the right choice.
It is to us to understand good and evil before death.
Only the pure are allowed in Heaven. Thanks to Jesus we all get there.We are all sinners. We all must evolve to a greater level of awareness. To get by Jesus on the way to Heaven we must be repentant, even though there is no Heavenly punishment for sin thanks to the death of Jesus.Regards
DL

You still haven't provided a definition for perfect or perfection. Message 3What do you feel perfect or perfection mean in relation to God?

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I will not re-write the dictionary.
The end of philosophy has been named as a time when the only thing left to argue will be the meaning of words. I do no t want to go there at this point.I will likely agree with any dictionary explanation.As far as God is concerned I would imagine that perfect to Him means whatever He does all the time.Regards
DL

You don't have to rewrite the dictionary, but since the dictionary carries many definitions of perfect, it would be helpful if you would let us know which usage you are applying concerning God and the Matthew passage you provided in the OP.In the OP you ask the question: In relation to the ancient usage of the word we can attain perfection on Earth concerning how we treat others. The verse is not all encompassing as you seem to be using it.Not being complete does not make one defective.It is hard to address your "if true" statements without knowing what usage of the word perfect you are using.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Yes, if he/she existed and could grant me eternal life (or some other reward). And the Norse; Ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans; Aztecs etc did worship gods who had flaws.

---

Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today! Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!

It does appear so. Why else would Matthew 5:48 command us to be perfect, unless were were imperfect? Why command us to have an attribute we already have?

---

Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today! Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!

Greatest I amIn your opening statement you make a claim of a fact I challenged you to produce evidence of that fact.Did you not understand the question, or did you purposely not produce the evidence? You made a statement of fact we are born Perfect.I now ask the second time for the evidence of this fact.In your reply to my post you said: Please supply scripture for this statement. God commanded Adam not to eat the fruit, not Eve so quit blaming the woman like Adam did. Please supply scripture. Please supply scripture.

quote:

---

John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

​

Reve 20:15 (KJV) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

​

Reve 20:10 (KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet (are), and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
  —Bible

---

The word translated by could have been translated as in, by or through. That means to get to heaven you must go through Jesus you can't get around him. He said if you try to get in any other way you are the same as a thief and robber.I think these scriptures says that if your name is not written in the book of life you will be cast into the lake of fire where the devil and the false prophet are. And that punishment will last for ever and for ever. But then maybe I am stupid and can't read.Now if this is to be a lecture you are giving us count me out.

---

Just because I believe it that does not make it true.

If Perfection is one of God's attributes and He can only produce Perfection, then He should be able to return at any time and say, Here is the perfection I have created.This would mean that even as we see it today, this world, would be perfect.
God would see the Perfection of the system whose destination He knows, even as we see individual flaws. Even these flaws need be in a state of perfection even as their imperfection does whatever this state is to accomplish. It is the total picture the is Perfect at any given time, not the individual components. Us.The Perfection that Matthew speaks of looks to be attainable by man and is can be close to the Perfection of God Himself. Because I can see some of the Perfection of God's systems, does that make me crazy in seeing good in evil. Or does this ability make me see somewhat the way God would see.This would mean that if I saw a three legged dog, I would need to see it as perfect. I think that the dog would think of itself as Perfect dog and be perfectly happy. I must then learn to see this dog as perfect and know that somewhere in the future, God has a set of four paw covers with one missing. Perfect. This is the type of thinking required for us to see the world as Perfect.This is important I think because if we cannot give God Perfection then He is no God.Perfection then has a definition that needs to include the ability for evolving, "as with a baby". It must be able to include the evil things we see around us "not near as much as we think".If God then is the only one who knows the complete picture and can justify wholly the existence of evil as something necessary to produce the greater perfection elsewhere or later. Saying this I will try to give some attributes to perfection that we can strive for.Perfection is a state where something or someone is created in such a way that they can reach the epitome of success in accomplishing their true nature. God could say without defect or flaw because from His view point this is what He sees. We could not say this unless we have reached that same level of sight.Your " Not being complete does not make one defective", shows you may be able to see where I am going with the definition. Difficult concept to grasp fully.In the beginning God said that things were good. I would suggest that things were Perfect and had all the requirements necessary for us to carry out our instructions from God were and are present as we speak.Regards
DL

Perhaps we all have the attributes of Perfection and he is asking us to practice in order to gain a greater perfection. Perfection can evolve. Babies do.Regards
DL

Yes, I certainly would. I somewhat agree with Doddy: This imperfect God doesn't even need to be able to grant me eternal life, or any reward at all.I would follow an imperfect God just as I would follow an imperfect human. I would have to be convinced that their motives are righteous and that I agree with their cause. I would also need to know that my service to them would be more beneficial for their cause than my personal current actions.Perfection isn't needed for my obedience. And certainly isn't a sole-consideration. Afterall, something could quite possibly be perfectly bad.

The problem with following an imperfect God is that you would not know if you are heading in the right direction for Heaven or not.Further there is no reason why a true and Perfect God would tolerate this false God to exist. If you were God would you tolerate competition? No.
There can only be one supreme being.
God would have it no other way.Regards
DL