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Author Topic:   Miracle
daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 53 (185287)
02-14-2005 7:23 PM


If you were to witness a miracle along with several other individuals how would you respond? By miracle I am speaking of an occurence that defies set physical laws, like healing a cripple instantaneously.
There are two likely responses:
- to consider it a delusion or a well played trick.
- to realize that what just occurred, science cannot explain.
I am not asking for opinions on whether miracles actually exist but to hear how you would respond to seeing a miracle and why.
The first response would be to stick to reasoning that only allows for natural happenings. The other response would be to accept that science cannot explain the whole realm of everything in our universe and that there is some higher, nontangible power (God, Satan, Buddha, etc...lets not get into details)

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AdminSylas
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 53 (185406)
02-14-2005 11:40 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 3 of 53 (185408)
02-14-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR
02-14-2005 7:23 PM


More than two responses?
You think that it has to be taken as a trick or evidence of something "supernatural".
Depending on the circumstances there are a couple of other outcomes:
1) insufficient evidence to draw a conclusion
2) unexplanable with current knowledge
In all circumstances of this type that I've ever read about there is never enough information to nail it down one way or the other.
So it can be:
1) false
2) miraculous
3) unexplained at present
4) inconclusive
and I'm sure others that I can't think of yet.
As noted it seems the insufficient firm evidence to arrive anywhere at all is the most common situation.

This message is a reply to:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 4 of 53 (185411)
02-15-2005 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR
02-14-2005 7:23 PM


Just to add to what Ned said.
Take this scenario. You are a man living in the 16th century. One night, you woke up in the middle of the night and you realize that you can't move. There appears to be something on top of you pressing down hard. You try to look and look and it looks like a dark disfigured human that is sitting on your chest. By now, you are completely awake and you are completely paralyzed. You try to scream for help but you can't even control your own breath. You are completely paralyzed.
My question to you is would you consider this a supernatural experience?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 53 (185414)
02-15-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR
02-14-2005 7:23 PM


By miracle I am speaking of an occurence that defies set physical laws
Well, if it happened, it can't very well have defied any laws, right?
I don't understand how you would know that a miracle occured in the first place. Something that appears to "defy natural law" merely means we didn't understand the laws completely in the first place.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 53 (185423)
02-15-2005 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR
02-14-2005 7:23 PM


Known Physical Laws
quote:
an occurence that defies set physical laws
Really the definition should be: defies known physical laws.
The definition of miracle is: 1. an event or action that apparently contradicts known scientific laws 2. a remarkable thing
Etymology of the word miracle
the Latin miraculum, "an object of wonder", became miracle in Ecclesiastical Latin which became miracle Old French which entered Middle English (as miracle) some time before the middle of the 12th century.
Miraculum comes from the Latin verb mirare, "to wonder", itself from Latin mirus, "wonderful".
Native Americans wondered at many of the things that the Whites brought to their continent. Did they consider them supernatural or a curiosity?
quote:
like healing a cripple instantaneously
My initial response is: "Cool Beans! Wonder how they did it?"
But since I have no medical background, I have no way to investigate, so the curiosity stops there.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 7 of 53 (185483)
02-15-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by daaaaaBEAR
02-14-2005 7:23 PM


daaaaBEAR writes:
The first response would be to stick to reasoning that only allows for natural happenings. The other response would be to accept that science cannot explain the whole realm of everything in our universe and that there is some higher, nontangible power (God, Satan, Buddha, etc...lets not get into details) .
The first part of your statement ("science cannot explain the whole realm of everything in our universe") doesn't necessitate the second ("there is some higher, nontangible power .").
Maybe you should have left it at "The other response would be to accept that current science cannot explain the whole realm of everything in our universe.".

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
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daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 53 (185640)
02-15-2005 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
02-15-2005 2:44 AM


Re: Known Physical Laws
Well, if it happened, it can't very well have defied any laws, right?
I don't understand how you would know that a miracle occured in the first place. Something that appears to "defy natural law" merely means we didn't understand the laws completely in the first place.
There could be instances where laws could be reinterpreted, but I meant scenarios where any and all natural laws cannot account for what happened. For example, my dad attended a very charismatic and Spirit-filled church when he was growing up and there was a man in their congregation who had a glass eyeball. A group of people prayed with and for the man and his glass eyeball miraculously changed into a real one. This did happen as far I know but I'm just using this as an example. You could examine each eyewitnesses account but that's not the point. If you did see this happen, without a doubt in your mind, as well as other people, it would imply the supernatural not natural.
This message has been edited by daaaaaBEAR, 02-15-2005 17:44 AM

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daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 53 (185641)
02-15-2005 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
02-15-2005 2:44 AM


Re: Known Physical Laws
My initial response is: "Cool Beans! Wonder how they did it?"
But since I have no medical background, I have no way to investigate, so the curiosity stops there.
I don't think it's necessary to have a medical background to realize that what just happened can't be medically explained. Maybe a lesser miracle would require medical investigation but I'm talking about a miracle that would be differentiated from medical explanation by common sense.
thanks for the thorough definition.
This message has been edited by daaaaaBEAR, 02-15-2005 17:33 AM

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 53 (185648)
02-15-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by daaaaaBEAR
02-15-2005 5:30 PM


Re: Known Physical Laws
Message 4 please. Thanks.

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daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 53 (185654)
02-15-2005 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by coffee_addict
02-15-2005 12:19 AM


message 4...
Take this scenario. You are a man living in the 16th century. One night, you woke up in the middle of the night and you realize that you can't move. There appears to be something on top of you pressing down hard. You try to look and look and it looks like a dark disfigured human that is sitting on your chest. By now, you are completely awake and you are completely paralyzed. You try to scream for help but you can't even control your own breath. You are completely paralyzed.
My question to you is would you consider this a supernatural experience?
Depends, I guess you wouldn't know unless somebody else saw it happening or it just can't be explained at the moment. But there are instances where no explanation could ever be reached unless you accept supernatural power. Jesus told a lame man to walk and he did, he rubbed mud on a man's eyes and he gained his sight. These miracles did not occur in secrecy but among a horde of followers who all witnessed the same thing. What if you were one in the crowd?
If you lost an arm and a man came up and reattached it (without medical apparatus) to full ability would you ever be able to explain that?

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 Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 02-15-2005 12:19 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 12 of 53 (185662)
02-15-2005 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by daaaaaBEAR
02-15-2005 5:54 PM


Re: message 4...
You didn't answer the question.
Also, there has been zero (nada) documented case of healing of amputated limbs.
To bring it up is like me saying, "let's assume that you're a moron... therefore you're a moron." (Yes, I'm a little childish.)
So, answer the question. Would you consider the experience I described as supernatural or not?

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 53 (185663)
02-15-2005 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by daaaaaBEAR
02-15-2005 5:54 PM


Re: message 4...
If you lost an arm and a man came up and reattached it (without medical apparatus) to full ability would you ever be able to explain that?
Ever?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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daaaaaBEAR
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 53 (185665)
02-15-2005 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by coffee_addict
02-15-2005 6:09 PM


Re: message 4...
No, from what you explained I would not consider that supernatural. Neither could it be concluded that it wasn't supernatural.
Also, there has been zero (nada) documented case of healing of amputated limbs.
To bring it up is like me saying, "let's assume that you're a moron... therefore you're a moron." (Yes, I'm a little childish.)
I said If, just a possibility, geez freak out. And why would any sane doctor document a case of healing an amputated arm by pure miracle, they would send him to an asylum. All that can be concluded is the accounts of other people who have witnessed miracles.

This message is a reply to:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 53 (185667)
02-15-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by daaaaaBEAR
02-15-2005 6:16 PM


Re: message 4...
So, are you saying, with absolute certainty, that any case of miraculous healing is suppressed by those involved with the investigation?
If so, perhaps you could point me to some kind of evidence that would indicate such conspiracy?

This message is a reply to:
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