Does immunity disprove the fall?

Boosting mechanisms from environmental influences doesn't contradict anything. We're still talking about a TREND. The system is extremely complex.

This concept lends strong support to the belief that when god created Adam and Eve with free will, he knew that the fall was inevitable, that he in fact planned for it. I have recently been leaning towards this belief as the most reasonable, although I don't know if human reasoning has any significance in these matters. But, it always irks me, as I'm sure it does you, when people talk of the gift of free will as though god were some jerk down the street tinkering in his garage without any clue as to the consequences of his actions. He must certainly have known, form even before the creation, exactly how things would play out in the garden. Given this as being true, we then have the scenario: creation of world, man, and free will; inevitable, pre-ordained fall of man; man cursed to toil, hardship, disease, and death; redemption and salvation of man, who now expresses limitless gratitude. If this is the true pre-planned scenario, we now have a basis to understand what life is all about.

You can of course select anything as your starting premise. I just wanted to point out that while some people might "strongly feel from their study of genesis that disease and death did not exist before the fall, but were invented at that time as part of the punishment", that that is simply false and NOT in the punishments as described in Genesis 3.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

wait--you mean that we're supposed to feel eternally grateful for a god that got us into this to begin with!? well I'll be . . .why would anyone want to worship that asshole? Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

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But this is the whole story of creation told (twice) in less than a page. Just because details are in short supply, are we to understand that there were no details to provide? The exact path that A & E used to exit the garden is not named or described. Are we to understand that they just floated out? Exactly what foods Adam was to farm and what implements he was to use are not described or named. Are we to understand that...I just don't know what to understand if the absence of a detail means that the detail was truly absent. I could list hundreds of details that are not explicitly described in the text but that we know must have been in evidence at the time. Also, we know that man, after death, does not return to 'dust'; maggot feces perhaps, but not actual dust. So we know that we are expected to use our rational minds to fill in the blanks. That's all I'm trying to do.

Maybe because some people believe that's the only asshole they have (well, other than their actual asshole, and worshipping that looks a little freaky.)Can we please get back on topic as to what the existance of our immune system implies about the interpretation of gensis.Edited by AnswersInGenitals, : No reason given.

I don't see how.All living creatures were created before the supposed "fall", including bacteria. It seems contradictory to suggest that disease was a result of the "fall". That the diseases were already there, in their hosts, before any "doom" was pronounced.As far as we know, Adam and Eve didn't live very long before the supposed "fall". Whether or not they were immune to their tiny inhabitants, they hadn't had much time to get sick and die, so "super-immunity" is just wild specualtion.

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Yes, of course. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He would have planned for all contingencies down to the last moment on earth. Certainly. Good reasoning from the Biblical evidence I would say.

Excellent reasoning, AiG. Since your nom de plume suggests hostility to Biblical creationism I'm very surprised, but also very pleased to see that an opponent can think it through so clearly.

First, even if that were true, it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Again, a pretty silly assertion. If something is not there it is absolutely dishonest to make up something to stick in.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There can be no "contingencies" to something which is omniscient.Here is one dictionaries defintion:
a future event or circumstance which is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty.
a provision for such an event or circumstance.

Thank you for those kind words. I was just trying to point out how easy it is to interpret the bible to say or mean any damn thing you want it to, an enterprise that you and I enjoy in equal measure. Its that 'lack of embellishment' thing. Opens the door to all sorts of follow-up 'embellishment'.As to my nom de plume, in as much as my main goal in life is to avoid getting beat up, I intend hostility towards no one. (Well maybe Buzzsaw a tiny, tiny bit, but he started it.)Regards, AnInGe

Strictly speaking you are correct. In fact I wondered if I should use the word. I decided that it makes sense from the human point of view. We think in terms of contingencies that would arise from an event. God sees them all at once of course so they aren't contingencies but it's reasonable for us to speak of them in such terms.

Faith writes: Actually the immune system is in fine form and growing stronger. These "recent diseases" (by which I assume you mean acquired - or secondary - immunodeficiencies) provide an excellent example of evolution in action. Since the only way that viruses can reproduce is by infecting a cell, they must be able to evolve faster than the host's cells. The HIV virus has evolved to a point where it mutates extremely rapidly and thereby has a devastating impact on the host. However the genetic mutation CCR5-delta 32 provides strong resistance to the HIV virus (along with smallpox and the plague).CCR5 - WikipediaWhat started out as a single genetic mutation is now present in up to 20% of the European population and to a lesser degree in other populations, due to the selective pressures of viruses in the past. The more that we are exposed to them, the higher the frequency of that particular mutation and its protection.Kakariki

Yes, according to genesis. However, the story also says that man would have dominion over all creatures.

quote:

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19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

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clearly, everything was intended to be a positive amusement for A. What we now know as imperfect and perfect parasites were also created then but probably had diffferent purposes or functions. I suspect that only after the fall did the parasites turn on mankind. Disease, not the parasites and pathogens, was a result of the fall. While I am viewing disease and the pathogen that causes it as two distinct categories, you see them as one. The pathogens were already there but they did not cause the diseases before the fall. I don't think there is any place in genesis that give us a frame of reference in regard to A and E's time in Eden. I wasn't arguing for the super immunity idea.