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Author | Topic: Why did God forgive our sins? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Did God (indirectly or directly) create Great White Sharks or Flesh Eating Bacteria? If we died as a result of either of these natural phenomena, would it be His fault?
My point is(and im off on a tangent simply to test the arguments) humans have a role to play in all of this. We can whine all we want about it being Gods fault that evil exists. I will argue that initially evil was chosen. God was responsible for potentialized evil. satan the fallen angel was responsible for actualized (chosen) evil. As are we. When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We are responsible for the evil we do. How are we responsible for great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria? God was responsible for potentialized evil. satan the fallen angel was responsible for actualized (chosen) evil. As are we. Edited by ringo, : Too many esses, my Preciousss. Edited by ringo, : Cross-eyed keyboard.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: We are responsible for how we interact with them...particularly the sharks. Regardless of how they were created or Who created them. In addition, humans made bacteria worse through abusing and not fully understanding the ramifications of antibiotics--something we created. People need to stop blaming God for evil and instead accept that we are responsible to avoid it. It may well be that evil was created to tempt us. (temper us...as iron---being tempered---becomes steel. Humans, when tempered(tempted) become stronger also. How are we responsible for great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
We are responsible for how we interact with them...particularly the sharks. Regardless of how they were created or Who created them So god created an obstacle course for us and it is up to us to avoid the nasty things? That's brilliant.
In addition, humans made bacteria worse through abusing and not fully understanding the ramifications of antibiotics--something we created. Say WHAT?! Do you know about the Bubonic Plague? Or the Black Death as it was known in the Middle Ages? It was a bacterial infection and was responsible for killing between 30-60% of Europe's population. This was in a time LONG before antibiotics. Now: who precisely created the Bubonic Plague Enterobacteriaceae? It certainly wasn't satan.
People need to stop blaming God for evil and instead accept that we are responsible to avoid it. It may well be that evil was created to tempt us. (temper us...as iron---being tempered---becomes steel. Humans, when tempered(tempted) become stronger also. Or, people need to acknowledge that the concept is entirely silly and leads credence to the notion that there is no god. And once again, the god you are describing if akin to some sick, deranged individual using their power to toy with others. Edited by Diomedes, : Fixed minor typo
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Its also silly to deify humans. Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe...we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards. You may think that God is a silly concept and product of human imagination, whereas I believe that He imagined(created) us long before we could do much more than climb trees and eat bananas...thus we are a product of His imagination.
Too many people only know God as a character in a book or a story told round a campfire. Too few people have actually met Him. (and nobody can really prove it...) My motive is simply to add to the ongoing discussions.... add by edit
And once again, the god you are describing if akin to some sick, deranged individual using their power to toy with others. OK...if a Creator of all seen and unseen existed, how would YOU choose to define Him? How would you relate to humanity? What would you expect out of them? How would you use your power to interact with people? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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jar Member (Idle past 393 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe...we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards. But at least according to the Bible God killed others and was a manipulative bastard. In addition it certainly seems we are way ahead of God, at least the God in the Bible in understanding this universe. Based on your criteria and what the Bible says humans are at least god2.0.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So where does God come in at all? What business is it of His to forgive us? If we are solely responsible for our actions, what good is His forgiveness?
People need to stop blaming God for evil and instead accept that we are responsible to avoid it. Phat writes:
To tempt us to play with great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?
It may well be that evil was created to tempt us.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You certainly present the argument in order to get people to think and question. This is good of you.
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
My premise was that evil was allowed to exist in order to temper us...to make us stronger.
What business is it of His to forgive us? You want your employees to be bonded. You want them to have clean records. You also want their hearts to be pure. We cant do it on our own and He cant do it for us. The process requires communion. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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jar Member (Idle past 393 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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No, I present the argument to point out that you are factually wrong.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
How does playing with great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria make us stronger?
My premise was that evil was allowed to exist in order to temper us...to make us stronger. Phat writes:
But nobody does have a clean record. If they did there would be nothing to forgive. And expunging the record serves no purpose if God is both the record-keeper and the employer.
ringo writes:
You want your employees to be bonded. You want them to have clean records. What business is it of His to forgive us? Phat writes:
So back to my original question: Why do people who claim to commune with God often seem to be completely clueless? Why do they worship the messenger while vigorously ignoring the message? We cant do it on our own and He cant do it for us. The process requires communion. Edited by ringo, : Fpellng.
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Diomedes Member Posts: 995 From: Central Florida, USA Joined: |
Its also silly to deify humans Isn't that what the Council of Nicea did when they deified Jesus?
Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe True and false. Humanity will never become godlike because gods don't exist. In the same way we will never become Orc-like or Fairy-like.But when it comes to understanding the universe, we actually know quite a bit. we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards And so is god, according the bible. Sodom and Gomorrah, the Great Flood, first born of Israel. Etc. Not sure what point you are making here.
You may think that God is a silly concept and product of human imagination, whereas I believe that He imagined(created) us long before we could do much more than climb trees and eat bananas...thus we are a product of His imagination. You are entitled to any belief you like. Tom Cruise thinks he needs to hook himself up to a car battery every day to cleanse his spirit of body thetans, which are the left over souls of dead aliens.
Too many people only know God as a character in a book or a story told round a campfire. Too few people have actually met Him. I don't think anyone has met him. And those that claim they have are either delusional or crafty scam artists.
OK...if a Creator of all seen and unseen existed, how would YOU choose to define Him? How would you relate to humanity? What would you expect out of them? How would you use your power to interact with people? First off, I would set conditions: how does he manifest himself? What are his key characteristics? Is there only one of them? What experiments can I devise that would shed light on his/her nature? Point being: the evidence should lead to the conclusion. Not the other way around."Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You yourself point out that GOD is unknowable. I submit that you cannot frame the issue with human logic, reason, and reality. You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart....which you somehow consider silly and/or fantasy. By holding on to your own veto power in regards to what you can factually prove...you may well have kept yourself out of communion.
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.
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Meddle Member (Idle past 1270 days) Posts: 179 From: Scotland Joined: |
In addition, humans made bacteria worse through abusing and not fully understanding the ramifications of antibiotics--something we created. But that is incorrect, antibiotic resistance does not affect the pathogenicity of bacteria, it does not make them any 'worse'. We are so used to controlling bacterial infections with antibiotics that we have forgotten how potentially deadly these bacteria have always been. For example, a Staph aureus bacteraemia, if left untreated, can kill you just as effectively as an MRSA bacteraemia. And it's this inability to treat which could allow a seemingly mundane infection to develop into something far more serious, just as it was before antibiotics were discovered. So who is responsible for that?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Phat writes: You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart..... Christians bleat on about this as though it actually meant something. I have no idea what it means and no-one has ever explained it without using delusional and poetic language. If you *are* actually in communion with god, please let him know that he can enter my heart any time he likes; I'd love to hear from him. Tell him that it's a silly fairy tale concept that you have to believe in him before he'll speak to you. Remind him how effective it was with that guy on the road to Damascus - he's already beta tested the process, it's time to roll it out before the competition overwhelms him. I'm waiting.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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