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Author Topic:   John could I talk to you?
John
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 92 (26881)
12-16-2002 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by forgiven
12-16-2002 7:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
i have a theory... well i actually have *tons* of 'em, but one that pertains to this... the higher a person's iq (however it's measured, whatever it means), the more grace it takes to believe
Don't you find that to be a bit of a disturbing admission? I mean, equating high IQs with disbelief? And the converse?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by forgiven, posted 12-16-2002 7:00 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Chara, posted 12-16-2002 7:43 PM John has not replied
 Message 33 by forgiven, posted 12-16-2002 7:48 PM John has replied

  
Chara
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 92 (26889)
12-16-2002 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by John
12-16-2002 7:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
i have a theory... well i actually have *tons* of 'em, but one that pertains to this... the higher a person's iq (however it's measured, whatever it means), the more grace it takes to believe
Don't you find that to be a bit of a disturbing admission? I mean, equating high IQs with disbelief? And the converse?

Well, I don't know about forgiven, but the Scriptures say that God chose the simple things of this world to confound the wise ... and as much as my pride would like to refute that fact, I know its true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by John, posted 12-16-2002 7:23 PM John has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 92 (26891)
12-16-2002 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by John
12-16-2002 7:23 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
i have a theory... well i actually have *tons* of 'em, but one that pertains to this... the higher a person's iq (however it's measured, whatever it means), the more grace it takes to believe
Don't you find that to be a bit of a disturbing admission? I mean, equating high IQs with disbelief? And the converse?

i don't think i did that, john... see, God's grace is limitless and "where sin abounds, grace abounds the more"... and i see chara responded also, and she can tell you firsthand that i am *the* most simple person she's ever met... not dumb, exactly, but simple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by John, posted 12-16-2002 7:23 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by John, posted 12-16-2002 11:40 PM forgiven has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 92 (26923)
12-16-2002 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by forgiven
12-16-2002 7:48 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
i don't think i did that, john...
It looks like exactly that to me, even after reading your response.
quote:
see, God's grace is limitless and "where sin abounds, grace abounds the more"...
So... are we equating high IQs with sin now? Otherwise, I can't figure out why this is relevant.
quote:
and i see chara responded also, and she can tell you firsthand that i am *the* most simple person she's ever met... not dumb, exactly, but simple
Does that mean God chose you to confound the wise?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by forgiven, posted 12-16-2002 7:48 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by zipzip, posted 12-17-2002 1:54 AM John has not replied
 Message 36 by forgiven, posted 12-17-2002 6:32 AM John has replied

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 92 (26937)
12-17-2002 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by John
12-16-2002 11:40 PM


I will chime in as someone with an IQ measured at the 99.9 percentile, and plenty of book-learning (neither of which have helped me much as a Christian, which is the most difficult, although fulfilling, relationship I have ever undertaken).
I take Forgiven to mean that the more confidence you have in yourself and your own discernment, the more likely you are to overestimate your own abilities and your own discernment. Which leads to a particular brand of academic with a healthy portion of self-confidence (some would say hubris or pride), standing on his/her soapbox asserting that God does not exist. Even while the child reading Proverbs comes across the well-known passage "The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"
Jesus notes that "...you must become as one of these [little children] to enter the Kingdom of God." In other words, I must swallow this misplaced self-confidence and pride and agree that I do not know everything ... and at the same time acknowledge that there is one who does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by John, posted 12-16-2002 11:40 PM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:03 AM zipzip has not replied
 Message 42 by David unfamous, posted 12-17-2002 10:53 AM zipzip has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 92 (26951)
12-17-2002 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by John
12-16-2002 11:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
It looks like exactly that to me, even after reading your response.
ok... well i didn't say it
quote:
f:see, God's grace is limitless and "where sin abounds, grace abounds the more"...
quote:
j:
So... are we equating high IQs with sin now? Otherwise, I can't figure out why this is relevant.
the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means
quote:
f:and i see chara responded also, and she can tell you firsthand that i am *the* most simple person she's ever met... not dumb, exactly, but simple
quote:
j:
Does that mean God chose you to confound the wise?
God chooses lots of things for lots of reasons...
edited to fix quotes
[This message has been edited by forgiven, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by John, posted 12-16-2002 11:40 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by John, posted 12-17-2002 9:38 AM forgiven has replied
 Message 39 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:07 AM forgiven has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 92 (26968)
12-17-2002 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by forgiven
12-17-2002 6:32 AM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
ok... well i didn't say it
Hey, chill man. Just trying to figure out what you did say.
quote:
the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means
So, basically, what zipzip said is accurate? That makes a lot more sense. You aren't talking about IQ, but pride. Pride tends to increase with IQ, but it isn't a direct correlation.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by forgiven, posted 12-17-2002 6:32 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by forgiven, posted 12-17-2002 9:16 PM John has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2249 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 38 of 92 (26972)
12-17-2002 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by zipzip
12-17-2002 1:54 AM


quote:
I take Forgiven to mean that the more confidence you have in yourself and your own discernment, the more likely you are to overestimate your own abilities and your own discernment. Which leads to a particular brand of academic with a healthy portion of self-confidence (some would say hubris or pride), standing on his/her soapbox asserting that God does not exist. Even while the child reading Proverbs comes across the well-known passage "The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"
Except that almost all of the academics I know (scientists) are the first to admit that they don't know all sorts of things.
Science makes you realize how much you don't know.
I have known some truly, utterly brilliant people, and they have all been quite humble and unassuming.
People with too much self confidence generally turn out to be good actors.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by zipzip, posted 12-17-2002 1:54 AM zipzip has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by David unfamous, posted 12-17-2002 10:38 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2249 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 92 (26973)
12-17-2002 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by forgiven
12-17-2002 6:32 AM


quote:
the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means
I disagree. I have met far more arrogant idiots than I have arrogant intelligent people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by forgiven, posted 12-17-2002 6:32 AM forgiven has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Chara, posted 12-17-2002 10:09 AM nator has replied
 Message 45 by zipzip, posted 12-17-2002 5:17 PM nator has not replied
 Message 48 by John, posted 12-17-2002 6:57 PM nator has not replied

  
Chara
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 92 (26975)
12-17-2002 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
12-17-2002 10:07 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means
I disagree. I have met far more arrogant idiots than I have arrogant intelligent people.

In other words, you disagree based on personal experience? and I'm to take your word for that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:07 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:35 AM Chara has not replied

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 92 (26978)
12-17-2002 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by nator
12-17-2002 10:03 AM


quote:
Which leads to a particular brand of academic with a healthy portion of self-confidence (some would say hubris or pride), standing on his/her soapbox asserting that God does not exist.
I may be taking this too literally, but I see numerous Christians on soapboxes. Normally in my town centre, shouting very loudly and scaring young children.
Don't recall academics doing the same though, and I live in Oxford!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:03 AM nator has not replied

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 92 (26981)
12-17-2002 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by zipzip
12-17-2002 1:54 AM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
Jesus notes that "...you must become as one of these [little children] to enter the Kingdom of God." In other words, I must swallow this misplaced self-confidence and pride and agree that I do not know everything ... and at the same time acknowledge that there is one who does.
Then surely you have to accept not knowing whether God really does, or does not, exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by zipzip, posted 12-17-2002 1:54 AM zipzip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 1:06 PM David unfamous has replied
 Message 46 by zipzip, posted 12-17-2002 5:32 PM David unfamous has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 92 (27011)
12-17-2002 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by David unfamous
12-17-2002 10:53 AM


What I was trying to get at by the IQ question was that I don't thinkt he majority of the world population is or ever has been extremely bright. Is that agreeable?
I see that the scripture is criticized frequently under scrutiny by more "intelligent" people. It was thinking that maybe God in his wisdom purposely had his book written for the more average mind? God seems to constantly lean to the simpler people, the weak. Even in the choosing of king David, David was the youngest, weakest, smallest of all the brothers and God chose him. Probably because people who think themselves very wise already are less likely to listen to God's instruction.
If the bible had been written in great scientific detail then the majority of people would not understand it's wisdom. So it was written in such a way that those who were not as "wise" could understand it and that those who are "wiser" could see why it was written in such a way.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by David unfamous, posted 12-17-2002 10:53 AM David unfamous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Delshad, posted 12-17-2002 3:00 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 54 by David unfamous, posted 12-18-2002 5:29 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied
 Message 69 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:44 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
Delshad
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 92 (27049)
12-17-2002 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by funkmasterfreaky
12-17-2002 1:06 PM


Nice point, Imho I think you belong to the wise ones.
Sincerely Dilshad

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 1:06 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 92 (27067)
12-17-2002 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
12-17-2002 10:07 AM


Fools come in all shapes, sizes, and IQs. Anybody who 1) thinks they know everything 2) refuses to listen to others and discuss things and 3) thinks much more of ones own capabilities and importance than they ought is a fool. That makes everybody a little foolish. But what I think is that big fools come along just as frequently among geniuses as among idiots.
Arrogance is another matter for another day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:07 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Mammuthus, posted 12-18-2002 3:33 AM zipzip has not replied

  
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