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Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 92 (27503)
12-20-2002 3:22 PM


It is as Berkely said, 'we live in a world of dreams'.
how can we ever be sure of anything, in truth, the skeptic always wins, proving the statement 'nothing is sure except doubt'-descartes. you are therefore not 'obliged' to believe anything since you can always use the argument:
'but what if my senses are fooling me, what if i'm insane, what if this is all a dream?'
Having proven that you can never be obliged to believe anything, how can you be punished for not doing so?
The flaw in religions that include damnation is that they assume that religion is reasonably the only sensible belief. but if the possibility of true belief is refuted, then there are no grounds for retribution from a Kantian point of view.
but is God a reasonable God?
'the lord uses foolishness to confound the wise'
perhaps not, but hey, this statement is as 'believable' as the statements, 'i created the world' or 'god is dead'.
The second flaw in self-righteous religions lies in the assumption of free will.

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 92 (27504)
12-20-2002 3:41 PM


it would be good to read 'The Antimony of Freedom'
all these religions keep going on about humans having 'free will'. Without freedom, there is no conscious decision since all is pre-determined. there can therefore be no right or wrong since there is no freedom to choose 'right' or 'wrong' and (from a kantian point of view) no reason to be punished.
But if the laws of physics can be used to explain and predict the human mind, then there is no freedom. this has, sadly not yet been achieved, but some of us believe that the human body and mind obey the laws of physics. (if you don't, good for you, it's ok)
but then, there is another way to refute freedom. ask yourself the question,
'how is freedom possible?'
Consciousness is rational. We make choices for reasons. if we didn't, then we would be relying on 'unresaonable' stimuli such as primeval urges and our decisions would not be 'conscious'. but if all of our decisions happen for reasons, then surely, those reasons rely independently on other reasons, which in turn arise from other reasons, etc...
The paradox of freedom arises from the notion that 'all things happen for a reason'. but for consciousness to be free, somewhere along the line, there has to be a breaking point, where the only logical conclusion is, 'i don't know why this happened, it's free!'. but if it can't be explained, then how can it be rational, and if it isn't rational, how is it conscious?
rather puzzling isn't it?
no freedom = no morals, which means bye-bye ten commandments

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by forgiven, posted 12-20-2002 7:15 PM Gzus has not replied
 Message 82 by joz, posted 12-22-2002 12:36 PM Gzus has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 92 (27663)
12-22-2002 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by joz
12-22-2002 12:36 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
quote:
Originally posted by Gzus:
...But if the laws of physics can be used to explain and predict the human mind, then there is no freedom. this has, sadly not yet been achieved, but some of us believe that the human body and mind obey the laws of physics. (if you don't, good for you, it's ok)...
See I`m going to have to disagree with you there because so much of what happens in the brain is on the quantum scale I don`t think we will ever be able to perfectly "explain and predict the human mind", Theres this fella called Heisenburg that says it just can`t be done.....

But who says randomness is free? randomness is bounded by the law of randomness, it is unfree in the sense that it does not choose to be random but just 'is'. if the human mind is explained statistically through randomness then it is no more free than if it were explained deterministically. The only way that free will can be preserved is if the supernatural intervenes somehow to make the mind unexplainable.
There is however the possibility that a mind that cannot be explained is not rational and therefore not conscious/free. The great question is, how is conscious freedom possible?
it is very easy to use the argument similar to
'can god create an object that he cannot lift?' -yes of course he can, he's god!, or it's beyond us!
but this presupposes that logic itself is flawed, a dangerous assumption.
[This message has been edited by Gzus, 12-22-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by joz, posted 12-22-2002 12:36 PM joz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by forgiven, posted 12-22-2002 8:18 PM Gzus has not replied

  
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