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Author Topic:   John could I talk to you?
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 92 (26571)
12-14-2002 5:39 AM


John your view of christianity makes me sad. I would like to start a discussion with you where we could discuss the problems you have with Christianity. I will give effort in my posts and research what we are to discuss. I will admit right now that I do not proffess to have all the answers. I admit that I am wrong sometimes. Let's start with your most major beef with Christianity.
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saved by grace

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by joz, posted 12-14-2002 10:11 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 3 by joz, posted 12-14-2002 10:12 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 8 by John, posted 12-14-2002 2:49 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 92 (26616)
12-14-2002 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by John
12-14-2002 2:49 PM


Okay, I'm going to some what agree with you here, in that we as Christians have been responsible for some terrible things in history and in the present. Even warring amongst ourselves over doctrine. I think we also push our belief system on others in the name of "evangalism", which really flips the angry switch on those who believe differently than us. I don't blame them for getting angry it's not our place to say what others should and should not do with their personal lives. We may have chosen differently, and we should focus on trying to live whatever particular doctrines we have chosen rather than push them. To me "evangalism" should be very simply to love, as Jesus Christ has shown his love for us, so should we then love others. This has been a problem in Christianity from the beggining (see Revelations 2).
quote:
On the subject of reaching far beyond functional necessity, the OT can be and has been used to justify all manner of things. You likely don't want to admit it, but slavery is condoned. Instructions are given as to how badly one can beat a slave. Instructions are given as to how to sell your daughters. Racism is condoned. The sum total of the OT is an account of a massive race war.
I am going to have to do some more study on my OT, to discuss this too much further. I admit I have not read the books of the law in a long time. I tend to pick up from Samuel on. I do know that yes again you are right and the OT has been blatantly misuesed to justify some terrible things. I do know that it was normal for Hebrews to sell themselves into slavery to each other, kind of like a contract worker.
I guess I've never thought of the OT as a huge race war. I guess I just always saw it as an account of God's relationship to his people. He had made a promise to Abraham and he did not break it. Even when all of Israel would stray from him. He allowed them to suffer the consequences of their actions, but did not leave them. This is a very brief and off the top of my head response, but I always saw the OT as a testament to God's faithfulness. To me it shows how much man fails and turns rotten on his own power. But how God is still faithful and keeps his word. Even though man continually breaks his end of the deal. I'm sure you will disagree, and yes I have only presented opinion so far. It is going to take some more study to make a decent case. Will try and support this assertion by monday.
Like Chara I am not going to try and change your mind, I find, as she stated that it is better to discuss things with people who think differently than you than with those who are like minded. This is why I enjoy discussion with you.
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by John, posted 12-14-2002 2:49 PM John has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 92 (26677)
12-15-2002 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by John
12-14-2002 2:49 PM


quote:
On the subject of reaching far beyond functional necessity, the OT can be and has been used to justify all manner of things. You likely don't want to admit it, but slavery is condoned. Instructions are given as to how badly one can beat a slave. Instructions are given as to how to sell your daughters. Racism is condoned. The sum total of the OT is an account of a massive race war.
John would you do me a favor and give some examples to support this assertion that the old testament is just a massive race war. I may have an idea of the sorts of things you're talking about, but then I still don't see your argument. So I would apreciate some examples of what drew you to this conclusion. thanks
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by John, posted 12-14-2002 2:49 PM John has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 92 (26702)
12-16-2002 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by John
12-16-2002 12:26 AM


I don't know if you saw my other post asking you to elaborate on a point or not but I (or rather my wife) just thought of something interesting.
What is the average IQ rate for most people, lets try and think globally? I would venture to guess most of the population (again my scope is limited I don't live everywhere in every culture) is really not all that brilliant. Would you agree with that?
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by John, posted 12-16-2002 12:26 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by joz, posted 12-16-2002 8:57 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied
 Message 26 by John, posted 12-16-2002 11:44 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 27 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-16-2002 12:26 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 29 by forgiven, posted 12-16-2002 7:00 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 92 (26721)
12-16-2002 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by joz
12-16-2002 8:57 AM


True maybe I should not have used IQ as the measurement system. How intelligent do you percieve the population globally?
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 92 (27011)
12-17-2002 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by David unfamous
12-17-2002 10:53 AM


What I was trying to get at by the IQ question was that I don't thinkt he majority of the world population is or ever has been extremely bright. Is that agreeable?
I see that the scripture is criticized frequently under scrutiny by more "intelligent" people. It was thinking that maybe God in his wisdom purposely had his book written for the more average mind? God seems to constantly lean to the simpler people, the weak. Even in the choosing of king David, David was the youngest, weakest, smallest of all the brothers and God chose him. Probably because people who think themselves very wise already are less likely to listen to God's instruction.
If the bible had been written in great scientific detail then the majority of people would not understand it's wisdom. So it was written in such a way that those who were not as "wise" could understand it and that those who are "wiser" could see why it was written in such a way.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by David unfamous, posted 12-17-2002 10:53 AM David unfamous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Delshad, posted 12-17-2002 3:00 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 54 by David unfamous, posted 12-18-2002 5:29 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied
 Message 69 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:44 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 92 (27085)
12-17-2002 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by John
12-17-2002 6:57 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John:
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means
I disagree. I have met far more arrogant idiots than I have arrogant intelligent people.

I have to agree.

I'd have to disagree, I'd say it's just about even both ways. I think most of us are too arrogant to see our own arrogance. Intelligence aside.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by John, posted 12-17-2002 6:57 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by John, posted 12-17-2002 7:03 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 92 (27140)
12-18-2002 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Mammuthus
12-18-2002 3:33 AM


not that I've been able to find so far. I've kinda been looking. Unfortunately I've involved myself in so many discussions I can't put the proper amount of research into any one area.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Mammuthus, posted 12-18-2002 3:33 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 92 (27153)
12-18-2002 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by David unfamous
12-18-2002 5:29 AM


Nope,
It confuses those who would rely on their own human wisdom, believing that is in fact wisdom, instead of studying the word and praying. God provides the understanding as it is needed. Through prayer. See I have a completely different view of what wisdom is. My view is in the book of James. It's a very short book close to the end of the New Testament if you want to check it out.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by David unfamous, posted 12-18-2002 5:29 AM David unfamous has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 60 by David unfamous, posted 12-18-2002 7:17 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 92 (27168)
12-18-2002 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by David unfamous
12-18-2002 7:17 AM


No I love my individuality, God gave that to me. I do not fear eternal hell, for I know that "it is by grace we are saved, through faith". Nowhere does that say by grace through faith I lose who I am. It says that Through grace God would use me.
On the blind faith thing it's not blind, there is a spiritual discernment there, which encompasses reason and knowledge rather than despite them.
As far as whether I think I understand or know, that has to do with listening to the quiet voice instead of the chaotic one.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by David unfamous, posted 12-18-2002 7:17 AM David unfamous has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 70 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:50 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 92 (27242)
12-18-2002 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by nator
12-18-2002 9:50 AM


But there are lots of people who believe, for example, that they have had contact with aliens, and even that aliens continue to communicate with them. They have exactly the same evidence for their experience as you do; personal conviction and emotional certainty.
They believe thay are using reason and knowledge, too.
Do you believe them?
Do you know that there is no other life out there somewhere? It's a pretty big place out there.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:50 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 74 by nator, posted 12-19-2002 10:20 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 92 (27496)
12-20-2002 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by nator
12-19-2002 10:20 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
But there are lots of people who believe, for example, that they have had contact with aliens, and even that aliens continue to communicate with them. They have exactly the same evidence for their experience as you do; personal conviction and emotional certainty.
They believe thay are using reason and knowledge, too.
Do you believe them?
Do you know that there is no other life out there somewhere? It's a pretty big place out there.

No, I don't know.
Do you believe the people who say, with just as much or more conviction and belief that they are telling the truth about theiir reality as you, say that the God of your Bible exists, that they have been taken up into alien spacecraft and experimented on?

Yes I believe them though I think they are quite possibly mislead as to what exactly happened to them during their experiences. *bracing for assault* I don't know what happened here, this thread has become useless to me, as to what I had started it for.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by nator, posted 12-19-2002 10:20 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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