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Author Topic:   John could I talk to you?
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 38 of 92 (26972)
12-17-2002 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by zipzip
12-17-2002 1:54 AM


quote:
I take Forgiven to mean that the more confidence you have in yourself and your own discernment, the more likely you are to overestimate your own abilities and your own discernment. Which leads to a particular brand of academic with a healthy portion of self-confidence (some would say hubris or pride), standing on his/her soapbox asserting that God does not exist. Even while the child reading Proverbs comes across the well-known passage "The fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"
Except that almost all of the academics I know (scientists) are the first to admit that they don't know all sorts of things.
Science makes you realize how much you don't know.
I have known some truly, utterly brilliant people, and they have all been quite humble and unassuming.
People with too much self confidence generally turn out to be good actors.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by David unfamous, posted 12-17-2002 10:38 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 92 (26973)
12-17-2002 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by forgiven
12-17-2002 6:32 AM


quote:
the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means
I disagree. I have met far more arrogant idiots than I have arrogant intelligent people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by forgiven, posted 12-17-2002 6:32 AM forgiven has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Chara, posted 12-17-2002 10:09 AM nator has replied
 Message 45 by zipzip, posted 12-17-2002 5:17 PM nator has not replied
 Message 48 by John, posted 12-17-2002 6:57 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 68 of 92 (27195)
12-18-2002 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Chara
12-17-2002 10:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
the higher the iq, the more likely one is to appreciate his own wisdom... that's all it means
I disagree. I have met far more arrogant idiots than I have arrogant intelligent people.

In other words, you disagree based on personal experience? and I'm to take your word for that?

Yes, it's based upon personal experience, and no, you don't have to take my word on it at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Chara, posted 12-17-2002 10:09 AM Chara has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 69 of 92 (27198)
12-18-2002 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by funkmasterfreaky
12-17-2002 1:06 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B]What I was trying to get at by the IQ question was that I don't thinkt he majority of the world population is or ever has been extremely bright. Is that agreeable?[/QUOTE]
Well, it depends upon what you mean by "extremely bright".
Is the world population extremely good at recognizing patterns and human face/expression recognition? Yes, we evolved to be very good at those things.
Is the world population extremely good at logic? No, logical thought is not natural.
quote:
I see that the scripture is criticized frequently under scrutiny by more "intelligent" people.
That is not what I see at all. I think that many theologians are incredibly bright, intelligent people. (Episcopal Bishop Shelby Spongh is one I greatly admire).
I think that the people who you are talking about simply come at the Bible without the assumption that it is true, as others do.
quote:
It was thinking that maybe God in his wisdom purposely had his book written for the more average mind? God seems to constantly lean to the simpler people, the weak. Even in the choosing of king David, David was the youngest, weakest, smallest of all the brothers and God chose him. Probably because people who think themselves very wise already are less likely to listen to God's instruction.
Eeeek, are you really wanting to go there? What you are saying is that God doesn't favor intelligent people, or maybe that you have to be less than bright to accept everything in the Bible.
quote:
If the bible had been written in great scientific detail then the majority of people would not understand it's wisdom.
That is why the Bible is not a scientific book, meant to be taken literally in any way, but a guidebook for how to live a good life.
quote:
So it was written in such a way that those who were not as "wise" could understand it and that those who are "wiser" could see why it was written in such a way.
That seems pretty convoluted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 1:06 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 70 of 92 (27200)
12-18-2002 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by funkmasterfreaky
12-18-2002 7:26 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
No I love my individuality, God gave that to me. I do not fear eternal hell, for I know that "it is by grace we are saved, through faith". Nowhere does that say by grace through faith I lose who I am. It says that Through grace God would use me.
On the blind faith thing it's not blind, there is a spiritual discernment there, which encompasses reason and knowledge rather than despite them.
As far as whether I think I understand or know, that has to do with listening to the quiet voice instead of the chaotic one.

But there are lots of people who believe, for example, that they have had contact with aliens, and even that aliens continue to communicate with them. They have exactly the same evidence for their experience as you do; personal conviction and emotional certainty.
They believe thay are using reason and knowledge, too.
Do you believe them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-18-2002 7:26 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-18-2002 3:42 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 74 of 92 (27348)
12-19-2002 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by funkmasterfreaky
12-18-2002 3:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
But there are lots of people who believe, for example, that they have had contact with aliens, and even that aliens continue to communicate with them. They have exactly the same evidence for their experience as you do; personal conviction and emotional certainty.
They believe thay are using reason and knowledge, too.
Do you believe them?
Do you know that there is no other life out there somewhere? It's a pretty big place out there.

No, I don't know.
Do you believe the people who say, with just as much or more conviction and belief that they are telling the truth about theiir reality as you, say that the God of your Bible exists, that they have been taken up into alien spacecraft and experimented on?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-18-2002 3:42 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-20-2002 1:40 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 79 of 92 (27645)
12-22-2002 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by funkmasterfreaky
12-20-2002 1:40 PM


quote:
No, I don't know.
Do you believe the people who say, with just as much or more conviction and belief that they are telling the truth about theiir reality as you, say that the God of your Bible exists, that they have been taken up into alien spacecraft and experimented on?
quote:
Yes I believe them though I think they are quite possibly mislead as to what exactly happened to them during their experiences. *bracing for assault* I don't know what happened here, this thread has become useless to me, as to what I had started it for.
Well then, how do you know you haven't been misled as to what exactly happened to you during your experiences?
If you apply the same logic...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-20-2002 1:40 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 92 (27646)
12-22-2002 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by forgiven
12-20-2002 7:15 PM


quote:
but isn't that statement only true if your premise, "the laws of physics can be used to explain and predict the human mind" is true? in other words, isn't it only true if the material universe is all that exists?
The second statement doesn't follow from the first.
It could be true that the laws of physics could be used to explain and predict the human mind.
It does not follow that, therefore, the material universe is all that exists.
God could have created the laws of physics and set the universe in motion, but does not intervene.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-22-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by forgiven, posted 12-20-2002 7:15 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by forgiven, posted 12-22-2002 12:25 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 92 (29251)
01-16-2003 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by forgiven
12-22-2002 12:25 PM


quote:
however, what sayeth you? is the material all that exists?
I don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by forgiven, posted 12-22-2002 12:25 PM forgiven has not replied

  
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