Answers to athiest's dum disputes

Guido,
You clicked the "reply to" button after my post then responded to about five different posters. Only the last couple of lines even remotely replied to me. I try my best to answer replies to my posts; it's helpful if there's a direct correspondence. What you said was "eveolutionists and other religions have dum disputes against christianity so that the don't have to believe it."So is your original statement now inoperable?

As usual these type of discussions go up, and down, and all around. I guess the Christian God didn't feel like making his book all that clear to be open for such miss-interpretations. One would think a perfect god would make a perfect book (If it should be taken literally like fundies believe), i.e. unable to find even the smallest of contradictions or miss-interpretations possible. Not only that, but he demands you be literate, something most of the world hasn’t been for thousands of years. Hey, maybe God should get with the times and come out on DVD, -- oh wait, most of the world doesn't have electricity either.I'm sure I'll get a whole slew of replies claiming only the "TRUE Christians can read it right!.. You're influenced by the DEVIL!" -- Wonderful circular reasoning, only the people who already base their life beliefs on it won't find any contradictions. By that token they should accept the Koran because, hey, only "TRUE Muslims can read it right!.. You're influenced by the DEVIL!"[This message has been edited by Garf, 04-13-2004]

Well,evolution has been grossly misrepresented,and I really didn't
have much of an understanding of it as I thought I did.
I need to look into it more,because it's clear that I don't have a clue about it.

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Desdamona*

I'm rubber, your glue; whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. -- My daughter taught me that one. Give conclusive evidence that the Bible is the Word of God, verbatim, and you'll start breaking the circular argument chain. Probably because they don't. Ever read about China? Japan? Korea? India? Places where several religions claim that the killing of living creatures, including insects, only brings "impurities" to your soul -- Many don't even eat certain kinds of plants. Ever been to a Hindu village? No, I don't remember any sacrifices going on. Ever read about the Aztecs before Cortez arrived to slaughter them? Human sacrifices were done to honor the gods; it had nothing at all to do with forgiveness. Many sacrifices were done before/after a battle. Many African tribes, such as Ibo society, sacrifice living things, though rarely, to honor ancestors, not Gods at all, and not for forgiveness. Where is this so-many? I'd probably be crying out "why?" and "please help". Oh wait, Jesus did too -- "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 15:34 -- Wow, doesn't sound like he planned the whole thing either. Of course this assumes that it even happened in that way. Read it twice in my lifetime, though the first time was when I was a good little Christian boy, the latter for historical studies dealing with various cultural movements concerning religion.So, it's for man to find God (Your God)? I guess the pre-1500 Aztecs should of got into a boat and sailed for Europe seeking a Bible -- What were they thinking!? No but you see you're actually not following the Koran because of SATAN, and according to Okonkwo the mischievous Purple Elephant is keeping you from seeing the true Ibo religion.[This message has been edited by Garf, 04-13-2004]

One of the best ways is to hang out on the Evolution board and read some basic articles on Talkorgins to at least get a foundation.As an evolutionist I urge you to NOT accept the theory right off the bat if you find one or two convincing arguments. If we all did that science would be a joke. Read both sides and decide, though the evidence is quite stacked up on evolution in my opinion.

I normally have to look at many sources before making up my mind on what I think about things that I have no clear understanding of.
Thanks for the advise.
be blessed.

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Desdamona*

Hi Funk,Could I enquire about what I *think* may be an error in calculation from this: Apparently we have two different 'hours', 3 and 6.You say that the Hebrew day started at 6.am so Jesus was crucified at 9 am, then by Roman time, starting at midnight, he was crucified at 6. am. 9 am and 6 am are not the same time of day.Also, could you clarify what you mean when you say that the Hebrew 'day' began at 6 am. Do you mean, for example, that a Friday started at 6 am, or that the 'daytime' part of Friday (24 hour period)began at 6 am. Keeping in mind, of course, that in Jewish time keeping the night (darkness) comes before the daytime (light).Cheers.Brian.

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Yes,I believe DNA paternity tests are acurate.
I believe it because the child has genes from both his father and his mother,and they can be used to determine who the father is when the Father is present for blood testing,or excluding others when he is not tested.
Do you believe in it? tell me why or why not?

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Yes, I do accept that DNA paternity tests are very accurate, just as you do.Now, do you realize that the DNA techniques that are used to determine paternity are the exact same techniques that Biologists use to determine how closely related different species are to each other?If

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Well,I suppose you do feel much more wise about your self.You probably think christians are ignorant and dumb,and you even imply it.

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No, I don't think Christians are ignorant and dumb.I do think that you as an individual have not researched any Biology, yet you feel comfortable rejecting 150 years of scientific discovery.

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Lean not on your own understanding,you could be in error.

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Of course.Can you show me where my error is?

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The book of John is not disagreeing with any part of the bible.

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Yes, it does.Don't you read the Gospels?Read all of Matthew 26, and here is an important verse:
26:17
Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?Read all of Mark 14, and here is an important verse:14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?Read all of Luke 22, and here are two important verses:22:7
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.22:8
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.Now, the account in John is radically different than the other three. Read all of John 19, and here are several important verses:(Pilate is speaking here)19:14
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.(emphasis added by me)19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.John seemd to want to change the story in order to frame Jesus as a symbolic "Passover lamb" which God in heaven was sacrificing for the spititual salvation of humankind.

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You cannot make scripture say something that it does not say.
To you the bible is in error,and thats your freedom of speech right there.

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It is you that wants to ignore what the bible says, as I have shown you above.

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I say that it is right on and 100% correct.This is my freedom of speech.

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Yes, you are free to say that, but you are wrong, as I have shown above.

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Yes,I know you think you are smarter than me.I already heard that.

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Smarter? I would say that I am better informed.

Thanks for the honest question, Brian. Many would have just ripped me apart for this apparent contradiction. This isn't quite what I said. Let me clarify. By Hebrew time in the Synoptics, Christ was crucified at the third hour (9am). By Roman time in John, He was taken away to be crucified at the sixth hour (6am). Being taken away to be crucified doesn't mean he was immediately put on the cross. The three hours from 6am when he was taken away to 9am when he was actually crucified was probably the time when he was tried and beaten by the Romans. My understanding is that, while a Jewish day does start at 6pm the night before, when reckoning hours it is customary to refer to the first hour as 6am. The nighttime hours are usually broken into three-hour segments called "watches," i.e. 1st watch = 6pm-9pm, 2nd watch = 9pm-12am, 3rd watch = 12am-3am, and 4th watch = 3am-6am. So a full day would consist of 4 watches (6pm Thursday - 6am Friday) and then 12 hours (6am Friday - 6pm Friday).

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Well,evolution has been grossly misrepresented,and I really didn't have much of an understanding of it as I thought I did.
I need to look into it more,because it's clear that I don't have a clue about it.

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Well done, Des!It's a rare Christian who will admit a lack of knowledge.I wish you well in your learning.

Just thought You might want to know that the passover holy day lasts 8 days.Was Jesus killed on the first day when they arrested him?
Thats a whole lot of activity for a day to me.
also note in the other verse it says about 6,not that it was 6 and not that it matters anyway.
There is no contradiction.The bible is a very interesting book and it was meant to be this way,and it encourages us to search out the meaning of all scriptures.

DNA proves we were created on purpose by a great inteligence much greater than ourselves and much more brillant than one can completly understand with the human brain.The human brain it's self is a wonder,and it's design is so much like a computer it's not funny at all.The human eye is a great thing to study too.It was made by someone who knew exactly what he was doing! Chance? I say not.

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Desdamona*

Hi Funk,Thanks for the clarification, I now understand that you believe that Jesus was crucified at 9 a.m., which is the third hour by Jewish time keeping. It is supported by John's Gospel that says he was taken away at 6 a.m. to be crucified, but three hours elapsed during which he was beaten up, mocked and carried the cross to Golgotha, so this gives a 9 a.m. crucifixion as well.Many thanks for clearing this up.Brian.

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With regards to the book of John contradicting the Synoptics about the timing of the meal and the crucifixion, my understanding (and I'm not a Jew, so I'm not totally familiar with the customs) is that the meal referred to in the Synoptics occurred on the Friday night before the sabbath, at the beginning (or before?) the actual Passover week celebration. John, in referring to when Jesus was taken away, said he was taken away before the passover celebration, not before that Friday night meal.

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The Jewish day runs from sundown to sundown. The evening before the first day of passover is the beginning of Passover. The meal referred to above would have been the first seder.

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For this one, Luke does indeed state that the ladies found the stone rolled away. And Matthew does state that the angel of the Lord, via an earthquake, rolled the stone away. However, if you read the Matthew account, it does not say that the ladies were at the tomb when the stone was rolled away. It only says that they were coming to see the tomb. So they easily could have been on the way when the earthquake occurred.

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So if it happened before they arrived, who saw it, and was able to relate it to the authors of the Bible?

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Yes, all 330 of them. Most if not all of these have already been disproven by people smarter than I, but skeptics like yourself never accept any of the explanations.

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Bit of a cop-out, isn't it? "Trust me they've been disproved. No need to go into them."

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We can go through more of them, but at some point you should ask yourself how may we would need to explain before you would believe.

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Uh... even if there were no contradictions, why would that be a reason to believe? To use an example from a previous post, Gone With the Wind is pretty solid on continuity, but I'd still be pretty dissapointed if I tried to find Rhett Butler's grave.

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"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya