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Author Topic:   Christian Denominations - Heaven and Hell
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 91 (172283)
12-30-2004 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by commike37
12-30-2004 12:05 PM


Re: Ignorance is Strength
It would seem that when discussing spiritual truths, one should show at least some of the Spirit that they are representing. Be nice to Jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 12:05 PM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 12:41 PM AdminPhat has not replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 91 (172289)
12-30-2004 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by AdminPhat
12-30-2004 12:11 PM


Re: edit: (this subtitle was edited in its original post)
All right, I'll tone it down and redo that subtitle (though I still love the book 1984). But as a high-school debater who is experienced in debate, Jar is really starting to frustate me (comparing me to "Exclusionist Christian sects" as early as Message 7 didn't help, either).
This message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 12:43 AM
This message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 12:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by AdminPhat, posted 12-30-2004 12:11 PM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 12-31-2004 10:43 PM commike37 has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3716 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 48 of 91 (172294)
12-30-2004 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by commike37
12-30-2004 12:25 AM


All Scripture
2 Timothy 3:14-15
But as for you, continue in what you have learned...and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Chrsit Jesus.
quote:
but as 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness."
2 Timothy 3:17
so that the man of God may be throughly equipped for every good work.
If scripture is refering to that which is cannonized or considered holy at the time of Paul, then none of the NT would qualify. Would Paul consider his own letters to be holy scripture?
IMO, Paul is not pre-approving the writings of future authors.
What do those books that were considered holy during Paul's time say about how to get to Heaven or Hell?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 12:25 AM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 2:02 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 01-03-2005 7:39 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 91 (172298)
12-30-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by purpledawn
12-30-2004 1:30 PM


Re: All Scripture
First off, this message was moreso meant to say to jar that I can use any part of the Bible to talk about John 14, not just John 14. edit: It was saying I could use any part of the Bible to talk about heaven or hell.
But on the question of whether or not Paul is pre-approving future work, the answer is yes. It says, "All Scripture is God-breathed," which means that whether it is written in the past, present, or future, it's approved as long as it's God-breathed. For more support, let's look to John 14:26
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
The Holy Spirit would teach the disciples everything (including all of what Jesus would say). And even if a certain book wasn't written yet, the Holy Spirit can still teach the disciples what that book will say.
The key thing to remember here is that Scripture is God-breathed and that these people are inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not Paul's job to worry about pre-approving future works, for God is present in Paul and will handle all of that.
Does that help?
This message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 14:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by purpledawn, posted 12-30-2004 1:30 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 12-30-2004 7:24 PM commike37 has replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 91 (172300)
12-30-2004 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Shaz
12-30-2004 7:36 AM


Re: My 2 cents worth.
I certainly agree that the Beattitudes establishes a standard that we should follow. However, just like the Ten Commandments, no one has perfectly lived up to the standards of the Beattitudes, so it's not a means to salvation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Shaz, posted 12-30-2004 7:36 AM Shaz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 51 of 91 (172315)
12-30-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
12-30-2004 11:08 AM


Re: Another question....
quote:
You always ask this, and I suppose that from your standpoint it makes perfect sense. to me, God is an absolute, and there is one of him. Naturally, humans have invented many gods, and from your standpoint there is no difference.
Well, right.
You are an atiest about a great many concepts of God/gods, phat.
quote:
True enough, and worth pondering. But to admit that we are a speck of a speck of a fleas ticks speck in the universe and then assume to know so much about it
Who says we assume to know so much about it?
There is a great, great deal that we do not know, about a great many things in the universe.
I do not personally know of any scientist or science-minded person who thinks that science has all the answers.
Far from it, actually.
It is religious folk who seem to want to tell me that they have all the answers.
quote:
all the while denying previous human religious speculations is NOT being humble, either.
We don't deny the speculations, we test them.
How many have survived the testing? How many have proved reliable, even for people who do not share the required faith?
quote:
We have simply made a god out of logic and science.
Hmm. If science is a God at least by using science we have tangible, real results that actually benefit people regardless of if they believe in it.
Anyway, I do not worship science nor logic. I consider them very reliable, extremely useful tools in understanding the natural universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 11:08 AM Phat has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 253 days)
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 52 of 91 (172320)
12-30-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
12-30-2004 10:20 AM


You clearly are concerned that all of the athiests you know are going to miss out on eternal life
That's true. I don't want you to miss out on eternal life.
Does this mean I fear death? Well, I fear hell more than the mind ending. I'll admitt that.
It seems that the only thing that matters to you about being a christian is that you get eternal life after you die.
It might seem that way if you are reading mike at evc. It might also seem that the brain is the mind - while investigating the brain only.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 12-30-2004 10:20 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by nator, posted 12-31-2004 4:00 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 253 days)
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 53 of 91 (172321)
12-30-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
12-30-2004 9:57 AM


Re: Another question....
Mike, when someone asks you if you are a Christian because you fear death, ask them if they refuse to surrender their will to God because they fear death of Ego?
. Maybe I need to give my debating skills an improvement. I seem to be asked questions and expected to answer. I'm always the one being interviewed. Lol.
But Shraff hasn't got an ego problem IMHO. Her baba is sweet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-30-2004 9:57 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 12-31-2004 4:01 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3716 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 54 of 91 (172367)
12-30-2004 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by commike37
12-30-2004 2:02 PM


Re: All Scripture
Supposedly if you believe that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the cross to pay the penalty for all our sins, then supposedly Christ has met your requirements for entrance into heaven, depending on which preacher you listen to of course.
The synoptics claim: When the young man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus listed the commandments dealing with people and added sell all and give to the poor.
The author of John has Jesus say that we are to believe in/on him (Jesus) for everlasting life.
Paul preaches grace/faith.
quote:
The key thing to remember here is that Scripture is God-breathed and that these people are inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Interesting that translation and interpretation aren't God-breathed? Unfortunately we are at the mercy of the messengers.
So if II Timothy wasn't written until about 100AD, how does that impact the authority of that statement?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 2:02 PM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 7:44 PM purpledawn has replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 91 (172374)
12-30-2004 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
12-30-2004 7:24 PM


Re: All Scripture
purpledawn writes:
Supposedly if you believe that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the cross to pay the penalty for all our sins, then supposedly Christ has met your requirements for entrance into heaven, depending on which preacher you listen to of course.
Well, you still have to accept this message of grace. I go more in depth about that in the topic about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
purpledawn writes:
The synoptics claim: When the young man asked Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life, Jesus listed the commandments dealing with people and added sell all and give to the poor.
Jesus was raising the standard for people who wanted to get into heaven by good works. The person who asked Jesus was trying to justify himself by the Law, so Jesus first laid out the commandments, and then he added the "sell all and give to the poor" to show that the person couldn't be justified by works (because he wouldn't do it). Jesus does this a lot also on the Sermon on the Mount (ie: adultery is looking at a woman lustfully, murder is hating your own brother). By raising the standards it shows that only Jesus can obey the Law.
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
purpledawn writes:
Interesting that translation and interpretation aren't God-breathed? Unfortunately we are at the mercy of the messengers.
It seems that the Greek word here is "theopneustos." I was feeling lucky on Google, and I got this:
"St. Paul, in 2 Tim 3:16, used the technical term Theopneustos, which means inspired by God, to indicate the special act by which God inspired the Scriptures"
It's not exactly God-breathed, but it still fits my point on how an author could pre-date approval because his writing is inspired by God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 12-30-2004 7:24 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by mike the wiz, posted 12-30-2004 7:59 PM commike37 has not replied
 Message 61 by purpledawn, posted 12-31-2004 8:34 AM commike37 has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 253 days)
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 56 of 91 (172380)
12-30-2004 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by commike37
12-30-2004 7:44 PM


Re: All Scripture
Jesus was raising the standard for people who wanted to get into heaven by good works.
Excellent point.
Christ said that the sinner who repents goes away justified rather than the righteouss man who says "thanks for making it so I am not like that sinner, God".
Is it just me, or are all mike's excellent geniuses?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 7:44 PM commike37 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 12-31-2004 4:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 91 (172384)
12-30-2004 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by commike37
12-30-2004 12:05 PM


Re: edit: This is a debate; debate includes refuting arguments.
Well, you are free to debate. I will tell you and if you will check, what I really prefer is discussion. I'm not trying to change your belief, but rather I'm trying to explain my position. Since you have thrown a great pile of spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks, let me try answering your "critical" questions as I see them.
How do you meet the standards of good works described in these two excerpts?
You try to help others. Not for gain, not as a condition of salvation, but because that it the charge from Jesus. You stop the car to carry a tutle across the busy highway. You help a short person reach products on the top shelf. You help the person infront or behind you unload their shopping cart at the store. When talking to kids you listen to what they say and get down to their level. You take the time to talk to elders, and to listen to their tales.
It's simple.
How is it possible to love each other, not with "phileo" love, but "agape" love?
Through what you do, not what you say. Do the things listed above.
It's simple.
How is it possible to act like the sheep, even though we've also acted like the goats?
The first thing is to actually act like the sheep. Very, very few do.
This is a very important part and IMHO, gets to the heart of what I think is the great misunderstanding of the issue of WORKS. It's very likely that the GOATS did good works. They are honestly surprised by the charge leveled at them. You get nowhere doing WORKS as a condition or purchase price for salvation. You can't buy your way in.
But you also cannot get in without works.
The difference is in the purpose of the works. The message of the Bible, of Jesus, is that each of us really need to try to do what's right, because that is what needs to be done. Just do it. Help others.
It's really that simple.
Do you meet these standards of good works by your own good works and your own actins, or is it through Christ's death, resurrection, and forgiveness of sins that you appear perfect before God?
Great question and very, very important.
The thing to remember is that the gift was freely given. Sins are forgiven. Everyones sins, Christian or Jew, Muslim or Hindu, Atheist or Agnostic. It's a done deal.
So what's the catch?
The catch is you're asked to live by the Two Great Commandments.
Love GOD...
and the two parter (note the second part is as important as the first)
love others as you love yourself.
And you will still never appear perfect before GOD. Don't worry though, like most parents he understands that. Your not perfect, just forgiven.
The fact is that "professing, Bible thumping" is establishing a standard of behavior or good works needed to go to heaven. And I have been arguing against justification by works this entire time. How about you put an end to the smear attacks?
Get serious. There are no smear attacks. I try to stick to content, not personalities.
But a religion that says you must profess is exclusionary. And IMHO opinion, that's wrong. And the things I find reading the Bible over the last 50 years or more have said just that. It's not what you profess, it's what you do.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 12:05 PM commike37 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by mike the wiz, posted 12-30-2004 8:24 PM jar has replied
 Message 60 by commike37, posted 12-30-2004 10:43 PM jar has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 253 days)
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 58 of 91 (172387)
12-30-2004 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
12-30-2004 8:16 PM


Y I luv babas
R u assuming that good workers are not believers?
This seems to be a preconception you have.
All these things you've suggested are good anyway, and I agree about those good things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 8:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 8:30 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 98 days)
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 91 (172390)
12-30-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by mike the wiz
12-30-2004 8:24 PM


Huh?
R u assuming that good workers are not believers?
No, not at all. But it is not limited to believers. Non believers too can help others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by mike the wiz, posted 12-30-2004 8:24 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
commike37
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 91 (172420)
12-30-2004 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
12-30-2004 8:16 PM


Re: edit: This is a debate; debate includes refuting arguments.
jar writes:
So what's the catch?
The catch is you're asked to live by the Two Great Commandments.
Whether it's the Two Great Commandments, The Ten Commandments, or the Beattitudes, it's still a standard that no human can live up to, even after receiving forgiveness. As I said earlier in Romans 7:15-20 (that should be the right chapter, I got the wrong chapter in previous messages), Paul, who was a very great exemplar of fulfilling these two commandments, expresses a hopeless feeling of himself falling into sin. Jesus said in Matthew 18:22 that when it comes to how often you forgive people,
"I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times" (of course, this doesn't literally mean seventy-seven, it means forgiveness should not be limited)
In order for someone to be forgiven seventy-seven times, he has to sin seventy-seven times. The problem with faith without works is not based on the works, it's based on the belief (or a false faith) that faith can exist without works. When talking about faith with actions in James 2:14-26, James makes reference to Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac in verse 23
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
Abraham was credited for his belief in God, not his good work by trusting God with his son Isaac. His faith existed before his good work. Works are evidence of genuine faith, but they are in no way a means to salvation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 12-30-2004 8:16 PM jar has not replied

  
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