Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,821 Year: 3,078/9,624 Month: 923/1,588 Week: 106/223 Day: 4/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Must religion be logical?
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 164 (374683)
01-05-2007 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Kader
01-05-2007 9:51 AM


Re: Gish Gallop
No the error that plague the bible have a lot to do with its value. The value of the bible isn't like the value of any book. Because people hold it to be the truth. And that means it deals with reality. So we can't treat it like any fiction book like you seem to do and just accept the "message". We need to verify the allegation of the bible.
And the wheel turns. I say that it doesn't matter whether any of the stories in the Bible are true or simply fables told around the campfire, and you say "No, they must be true."
Perhaps your position, for you, is a reasonable position. It is exactly the same position of the Biblical Literalist who says "If anything in the Bible is not fact and true then the whole thing is false and Christianity is a fraud." If so, then fine. I have no problem with you holding that belief.
But as I have said repeatedly, that is not the position I hold nor is it really IMHO a logical one.
As an example.
In the Bible Jesus teaches using parables. He speaks of the ass that gets caught in a crack and the two houses built on different foundations and the Good Samaritan.
Does it matter whether any of those things happened? The message is still the same regardless, is it not?
And for that you need to assume that God is more or less a biblical God. And befor you do that, you need to first validate how true can the bible be (accurate).
Well, no.
That would be assuming God did all thoses things. And all you have as a "proof", is the bible.
How many times need I repeat this. First we are talking about the Bible. Second, I have said that even if the Bible is no more than fables told around a campfire the message would still be valid. Third, you asked me why I believe the story of Jesus and I explained that the reason I believe it is because I think it is the kind of message the GOD I believe in would send.
Notice in what I have said you do not find the words fact or absolute, but rather belief.
Are you saying that God showed you personally the truth ?
Well I am certainly not smart enough to know TRUTH, whatever that is. For the most part I only worry about truth when it is something that is possible to determine anyway.
If GOD exists, She exits regardless of any evidence God does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, then He does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist.
If there is a GOD, then that is true regardless of any beliefs or evidence to the contrary.
If GOD does not exist, then regardless of belief or evidence God does not exist.
There is no way to test the existence of GOD, so until we die and find out for sure, none of us can really know the answer to that question.
We can however have beliefs and opinions on the issue. I happen to believe that GOD exists.
Are you telling me he speaks to you ? or anyone for that matter ?
I believe that He does. However I am also honest enough to know that there is no way to verify that fact, I could be wrong.
Well I have to learn from someone, I can't find God (as the bible describe him) or even know about jesus if I don't read the bible. I can't get that "knowledge" myself. I need someone to teach me (or give me a bible)
Well that can be easily handled. There are innumerable places that will give you a Bible. Seek out your local Anglican priest and ask for one. But you can only get Knowledge yourself. You are completely in charge of what you learn.
There are also numerous copies of the Bible online and you can read whichever version or translation you prefer. At Bible Gateway you can find many versions including two in French.
If you want to take into account your personal experience (if you still think that what you experienced prove in your eye the existance of Jesus for example) Well then think about all the other followers of other religions who thinks the same exact way as you.
How many times must I repeat this. I do not use the words proved or fact or surety when I speak of Religion. I have said that I consider all religions including Christianity as Maps, not the Territory. The other folk are reading a different Map than I am, yet we are all in the same Territory.
If you don't understand, well simply put. If you never heard of Jesus, you will not experience anything concerning Jesus. It has never happened that a missionary went to some indian village to preach Jesus and found an little indian who already found him. You get my point ?
I understand but again, I have said that I don't think that much matters. If you have never heard of Jesus then it is very unlikely that you will be a Christian.
So what?
How is God self evident if you need the bible to understand him ?
I do not say that you need the Bible to find GOD. I also doubt that anyone understands GOD. The best we can do is build some image that may be more or less like the reality.
It is self evident to you that there is only 1 God?
I think so. When we look at the universe one thing that stands out is that the laws of physics appear to be universal. Given similar conditions, gravity appears to behave the same way regardless of where those points are, the atomic forces appear to work the same everywhere, when we look at the limited sample of life we know of, the processes seem to be pretty much the same for all.
If GOD created the world, then it appears that all of creation is created to the same set of rules. Had there been multiple Gods, would that be true?
Possibly. For example one God might have been in charge of all life and so we would find all life following his rules.
But then when we look at the details, we find that living things also follow the same atomic forces as stars and galaxies. That for me implies that if the separate God that created life exists, She had to use the rules of whichever God created the rules of physics.
We can carry this on to look at the God of Chemistry for example and again, we see that the God of Chemistry also had to use the rules of the God of Physics.
Or we could imagine that different Gods created different areas. But again, when we look we see that all the areas of the universe seem to follow the same rule sets.
Since we do see that uniformity at the most basic levels, I believe that there is but one GOD.
It is self evident to you that this God is all loving ?
I believe that if there is a GOD then that GOD will be complete. Is that GOD all loving? Likely. If we really are Her creation then I would imagine that GOD, like a parent, would wish the best for His children.
Your experience might confirm that the message of most religions is logical. (Treat the other like you would like to be treated etc..) But in the whole world, there is no personal experience prove the existance of Jesus for example.
Again with the proof.
I have said repeatedly that even if we found absolute proof that Jesus existed it would not address His divinity.
I have no proof. I have offered no proof. I will offer no proof. I require no proof.
Again I repeat:
"If GOD exists, She exits regardless of any evidence God does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, then He does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 9:51 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:05 PM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 107 of 164 (374690)
01-05-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by jar
01-05-2007 10:43 AM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
The passage says "made man" not dressed as man, or appearing as man, or look like man. All of those concepts were familiar to the writers at the time and had been used often. In the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah we see agles that appear as men. But they are angels in disguise.
I think there is a vast difference between the writers of the ancient Hebrew world and the world of 4th century Rome!
The creed cannot be compared to the Old testament jar, the creed is just a list of beliefs.
For there to be a sacrifice, GOD must become man, to live as man. Not pretend to be man.
Not at all, in fact I find it rather silly for an omnipotent being to HAVE to become a human in order to understand humans.
Anyway, it wasn’t really a sacrifice at all. Three days in the earth and Jesus Knew that he was going to rise again.
It’s not as if He believed that he was going to die and that would be it, he knew what was coming next, it can hardly be called a sacrifice.
The tale of Jesus only makes sense if He is really just man.
I don’t think it makes sense at all, no matter whose interpretation we take.
But no I did not Brian. I did not say that GOD (Jesus) had become man.
You said So as a Christian I believe that before His birth, and after His Ascension, Jesus is totally divine
How else can I read this?
I’ll give you my understanding of what you have posted and maybe you can show me where I misunderstand.
Before his birth Jesus was God (divine), therefore Jesus is God. The when he was born as a human from Mary’s womb, he was a human and therefore not a God anymore, thus God ceased to exist because He became totally human. Then Jesus ascended and became God again. Hence we have Jesus the God becoming human, dying and then becoming a God again. A human who can turn Himself into God is quite a trick.
If Jesus was divine before His birth then He must be one and the same as Yahweh since the Bible teaches that Yahweh is the only God there is. If God becomes man, then God ceases to exist since there is only one God.
This is the mystery of the Trinity.
Like Gene Scott’s ”smoke and mirrors’?
Are God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit three entities or three aspects of one entity? I don't imagine that will get solved in this thread or any other.
Don’t think so either.
But there is ample support for the idea of GOD still being in existence while Jesus walks the Earth.
Which could suggest that Jesus isn’t God
Jesus prays to GOD, expresses the concept that it is still GOD who is in charge and determining outcomes.
There are different opinions about why Jesus prayed to God.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 01-05-2007 10:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 01-05-2007 12:15 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 117 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:35 PM Brian has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 108 of 164 (374692)
01-05-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
01-05-2007 11:40 AM


Re: Gish Gallop
Jar, I like the way you think, and I think you don't understsand my position.
Each time I adressed an issue with belief, my isssue was how can you believe (read know) in A or B.
I mean, your the most open minded christian i've ever conversed with.
Anyways, I enjoy reading your posts because you seem to be...wise or wiser then most christian and atheist alike.
quote:
* "I believe God(s) exist(s)" means that "I know God(s) exist(s)".
* "I believe God(s) exist(s)" can still mean "I don't know if God(s) exist(s)".
I think you fit more in my definition of agnostic. Anyways, weither you call yourself christian or a defender of the Flying spagetthi monster, I don't care. I think your views of the Bible are not what I encouter in the majority of christian everyday.
I think most christian enter the categroy of "I KNOW"
While you admit that you know nothing and only believe.
I guess then why I find your position illogical is why would someone chose to believe in something he trutfully don't know if it is true or not.
I mean I believe in gravity
I believe that I am not dreaming all of this
But then when it comes to believing in Jesus, I just can't. Because there is too many contradiction.
Edited by Kader, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 01-05-2007 11:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 12:24 PM Kader has replied
 Message 114 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:26 PM Kader has not replied
 Message 115 by jar, posted 01-05-2007 12:27 PM Kader has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 109 of 164 (374693)
01-05-2007 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Brian
01-05-2007 5:11 AM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
Brian writes:
But this just says he was made man, it doesn't say he was changed from God into a human. It could be that He was made to look like a man.
Et incarnatus est, from the creed, says more than God looked like a man. It say He was made flesh. And I might note that 'God was made man' is NOT there, but rather, God IS made man, not in the past tence, but eternally.
But you said that God (Jesus) had become a man, so since there is only one God, who was the God that turned Jesus back into God again and who was the God that raised Jesus from the dead?
So it is that the doctrine of the Trinity, no matter how insensible, is the only sensible thing which works based on our knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 5:11 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 12:16 PM anastasia has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 164 (374696)
01-05-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Brian
01-05-2007 11:59 AM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
Before his birth Jesus was God (divine), therefore Jesus is God. The when he was born as a human from Mary’s womb, he was a human and therefore not a God anymore, thus God ceased to exist because He became totally human. Then Jesus ascended and became God again. Hence we have Jesus the God becoming human, dying and then becoming a God again. A human who can turn Himself into God is quite a trick.
Not exactly. I do not believe that GOD ceased to exist when Jesus became man.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 11:59 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 111 of 164 (374697)
01-05-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by anastasia
01-05-2007 12:09 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
So it is that the doctrine of the Trinity, no matter how insensible, is the only sensible thing which works based on our knowledge.
It only works if you really want it too.
At face value it is a mess and really looks like an apologetic for an unwanted explicit polytheism.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:09 PM anastasia has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 112 of 164 (374699)
01-05-2007 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Kader
01-05-2007 9:51 AM


Re: Gish Gallop
Kader writes:
If you don't understand, well simply put. If you never heard of Jesus, you will not experience anything concerning Jesus. It has never happened that a missionary went to some indian village to preach Jesus and found an little indian who already found him. You get my point ?
The point is, that if you go to some foreign land and find a little Indian who already does what the gospel teaches, the Indian already knows God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 9:51 AM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:27 PM anastasia has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 113 of 164 (374701)
01-05-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Kader
01-05-2007 12:05 PM


Kader writes:
... why would someone chose to believe in something he trutfully don't know if it is true or not.
That's what belief is: a substitute for knowing. When we don't know, we can only believe.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:05 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:37 PM ringo has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 114 of 164 (374702)
01-05-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Kader
01-05-2007 12:05 PM


Re: Gish Gallop
Kader writes:
I mean I believe in gravity
Seriously, man, you don't believe in gravity. You know about gravity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:05 PM Kader has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 164 (374703)
01-05-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Kader
01-05-2007 12:05 PM


misunderstanding my position again.
Kader, you say:
* "I believe God(s) exist(s)" means that "I know God(s) exist(s)".
* "I believe God(s) exist(s)" can still mean "I don't know if God(s) exist(s)".
I believe GOD exists. But I must in all honesty also admit that I could be wrong.
I think your views of the Bible are not what I encouter in the majority of christian everyday.
That might be so. My beliefs are not all that unusual though and I have taught this and even more controversial views in Adult Sunday School. So far none of the Priests have been overly concerned with my beliefs. In fact as I mentioned earlier, this Sundays sermon was on the fact of Jesus being only man while living here among us, and it was preached by a Lutheran trained Pastor.
I think most christian enter the categroy of "I KNOW"
While you admit that you know nothing and only believe.
Likely so. But I do take my beliefs very seriously and I have spent a great deal of time challenging them. I am not sure all Christians question their beliefs. I have been told by many that the very idea of questioning their beliefs is too far out of their comfort zone.
I guess then why I find your position illogical is why would someone chose to believe in something he trutfully don't know if it is true or not.
There are many things where we can never know if they are true or not. Take it from a man who twice got married believing each time that it was for life, only to find that not to be true.
But then when it comes to believing in Jesus, I just can't. Because there is too many contradiction.
That's fine, I see no reason that you must believe in Jesus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:05 PM Kader has not replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 116 of 164 (374704)
01-05-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by anastasia
01-05-2007 12:17 PM


Re: Gish Gallop
The point is, that if you go to some foreign land and find a little Indian who already does what the gospel teaches, the Indian already knows God.
And what the indian would be doing ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:17 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:38 PM Kader has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 117 of 164 (374705)
01-05-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Brian
01-05-2007 11:59 AM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
Brian writes:
Which could suggest that Jesus isn’t God
I only mean to be objective and not deny that to someone else the mystery of the trinity is not exactly the same mystery that my belief presents, and entirely as valid, but it does sound like if God became man and was still God in heaven, and just a man on earth, then it sounds mysteriously the same as God making just another man and then turning him into God after he dies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 11:59 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 12:51 PM anastasia has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 118 of 164 (374706)
01-05-2007 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ringo
01-05-2007 12:24 PM


That's what belief is: a substitute for knowing. When we don't know, we can only believe.
I agree, and yet, the belief in any religion is often held as a knowledge.
"God exist and you are CRAZY not to see it!!"
You know ....that kind of "belief"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 12:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 12:54 PM Kader has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 119 of 164 (374707)
01-05-2007 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Kader
01-05-2007 12:27 PM


Re: Gish Gallop
Kader writes:
And what the indian would be doing
Th Indian would be doing the best he can to be a good person based on the knowledge that he has.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:27 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 12:44 PM anastasia has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 120 of 164 (374708)
01-05-2007 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by anastasia
01-05-2007 12:38 PM


Re: Gish Gallop
Th Indian would be doing the best he can to be a good person based on the knowledge that he has.
I do not believe in jesus, but I can assure you, I am doing my best to be a good person with the knowledge that I have. I try to respect others and to treat them as I would like to be treated.
But how come I don't know God ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:38 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by anastasia, posted 01-05-2007 12:55 PM Kader has replied
 Message 132 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-05-2007 2:03 PM Kader has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024