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Author Topic:   Must religion be logical?
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 76 of 164 (374441)
01-04-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
01-04-2007 2:17 PM


Wait, my question was simple.
Do you believe that God can or cannot have childrens ?
If you believe he can, you may call yourself christian and you HAVE to disgree with the Islamic views of God(or what he will or won't do).
And vice versa.
Many questions such as the divinity of Jesus cannot be tested or verified by anyone living.
But to a christian Jesus being divine is logical. It doesn't need any proof.
Other things such as ways of treating others can be tested and verified.
Verified against what ? morality ?
It is very logical to threat everyone the way we woulds like to be treated. What is your point ? That religions are logical ? Not at all
A religion is a whole, when someone say's he is a christian that means he believe in the bible (or some part of it). And he BELIEVE that Jesus is the son of God.
There is no partial truth here, If you think that jesus MIGHT be the son of God then you are not a christian.
I think Jesus might be the son of god, I never ruled out the possibility, but up to now, having no evidence of his existance makes me tend to believe that he actually didn't exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 2:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 3:05 PM Kader has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 164 (374445)
01-04-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Kader
01-04-2007 2:41 PM


more "so what?" assertions.
Wait, my question was simple.
Do you believe that God can or cannot have childrens ?
If you believe he can, you may call yourself christian and you HAVE to disgree with the Islamic views of God(or what he will or won't do).
And vice versa.
Yes. I have said all along that Christianity and Islam are different religions. Those of us who are Christians believe that Jesus before he was here on Earth, and after his ascension, is divine.
Muslims do not.
It is likely that one of us is wrong.
They are two different religions.
Verified against what ? morality ?
No, not simply morality. Morality is a learned response. It, like all other cultural traditions and even knowledge itself grows and evolves over time. We can only verify such parts of the Map against the history of morality over time, the record of what resulted from certain stances of morality, and our own personal inner sense of what is right in a given situation.
A religion is a whole, when someone say's he is a christian that means he believe in the bible (or some part of it). And he BELIEVE that Jesus is the son of God.
There is no partial truth here, If you think that jesus MIGHT be the son of God then you are not a christian.
If you do not also consider the fact that you might be wrong, you are not being honest with yourself.
I think Jesus might be the son of god, I never ruled out the possibility, but up to now, having no evidence of his existance makes me tend to believe that he actually didn't exist.
Okay, that is a reasonable position to hold. But remember, even if we had absolutely conclusive proof that he did exist, it would not speak to the issue of his divinity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 2:41 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 01-04-2007 3:26 PM jar has replied
 Message 79 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 3:32 PM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 78 of 164 (374451)
01-04-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
01-04-2007 3:05 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
It is likely that one of us is wrong.
And equally likely that both are wrong!
But, regarding Jesus' divinity, He either is or isn't God, there is no 'partial' ground on that issue.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 3:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 3:56 PM Brian has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 79 of 164 (374453)
01-04-2007 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
01-04-2007 3:05 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
I think Jesus might be the son of god, I never ruled out the possibility, but up to now, having no evidence of his existance makes me tend to believe that he actually didn't exist.
Okay, that is a reasonable position to hold. But remember, even if we had absolutely conclusive proof that he did exist, it would not speak to the issue of his divinity.
So then can we agree that believing that Jesus is the son of God is illogical ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 3:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Brian, posted 01-04-2007 3:40 PM Kader has not replied
 Message 82 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 3:59 PM Kader has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 80 of 164 (374456)
01-04-2007 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Kader
01-04-2007 3:32 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
So then can we agree that believing that Jesus is the son of God is illogical ?
I think it is safe to conclude that the Trinity is illogical.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 3:32 PM Kader has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 164 (374466)
01-04-2007 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Brian
01-04-2007 3:26 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
But, regarding Jesus' divinity, He either is or isn't God, there is no 'partial' ground on that issue.
Well yes and no.
This Sunday the sermon during the current cycle was on John 1 and the meaning of "Incarnation". Father Earl, our priest (actually ordained as a Lutheran) was pointing out some of the different views of Jesus when compared to other traditions.
There are many tales of gods walking among men, but generally they are gods pretending to be human. Father Earl was pointing out how different the incarnation of Jesus is compared to those tales. Jesus is not God pretending to be man while here on Earth, but actually just human, with all the limitations that includes.
He even used a reference to "nudge, nudge" and how can you not love a sermon that references Monty Python.
We see this also in the Nicene Creed.
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;
Made man. Not pretending to be man, or part man part god, but Man.
So as a Christian I believe that before His birth, and after His Ascension, Jesus is totally divine, however while He lived among us, He was totally Human.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Brian, posted 01-04-2007 3:26 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Brian, posted 01-04-2007 5:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 164 (374469)
01-04-2007 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Kader
01-04-2007 3:32 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
So then can we agree that believing that Jesus is the son of God is illogical ?
I don't find it illogical but then you might. You are not me and it is not simply reasonable, but logical that you will hold different beliefs than I do.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 3:32 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 4:27 PM jar has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 83 of 164 (374495)
01-04-2007 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
01-04-2007 3:59 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
I don't find it illogical but then you might. You are not me and it is not simply reasonable, but logical that you will hold different beliefs than I do.
Well if you were to explain to me how come Jesus is Divine you woul dprobably have to quote the Bible.
And in any event where I would say "but the bible is full of errors why should I believe this part ?" would you simply smile and say "It is, but...."
I want to know the logic of what you could say after that "but...."
Please try and explain to me how logical it is for you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 3:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 4:46 PM Kader has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 164 (374501)
01-04-2007 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Kader
01-04-2007 4:27 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
jar writes:
I don't find it illogical but then you might. You are not me and it is not simply reasonable, but logical that you will hold different beliefs than I do.
to which Kader replied:
quote:
Well if you were to explain to me how come Jesus is Divine you woul dprobably have to quote the Bible.
And in any event where I would say "but the bible is full of errors why should I believe this part ?" would you simply smile and say "It is, but...."
I want to know the logic of what you could say after that "but...."
Please try and explain to me how logical it is for you
Well, first, I would never try to convert you to Christianity, or any other religion.
I would say that the Bible is full of factual errors, and probably know many that you are not even aware of. But that has little to do with the value of the Bible or any other scripture.
I find the story of Jesus life and ministry logical because it is the type of sweeping example and lesson a GOD, one that really did create the Universe might present.
What more awesome lesson could there be than GOD, instead of simply telling us, became one of us, lived among us, suffering all the little indignities of humanity, having to learn how to control His bowels, to walk, to talk, to stumble, fall, get cut knees and boo-boos.
Here is GOD teaching us about living not through words, but through actually doing it, giving up all the power that makes one GOD and becoming simply man.
The story goes on though. GOD also clearly demonstrates that there is life after death, again not through simply words, but the physical reality of Jesus returning from the grave, to walk with His friends, talk with them, laugh with them
Finally He shows us a glimpse of what GOD really is in the Ascension, when He returns to GOD, no longer mere human but GOD in all Her glory.
So logically, I see the story of Jesus as what a real loving GOD would do, showing us not just by words, not just by profession, but through action and reality what His message, presence and communion is all about.
See, no Bible quotes and my hands never left my arms.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 4:27 PM Kader has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 5:02 PM jar has replied

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 3726 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 85 of 164 (374508)
01-04-2007 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
01-04-2007 4:46 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
So logically, I see the story of Jesus as what a real loving GOD would do, showing us not just by words, not just by profession, but through action and reality what His message, presence and communion is all about.
But God didn't show you anything, why ?
Why doesn't he speak to me ?
Why do I need to learn about him(or her as you seem to prefer) through you ?
And why did you have to learn about her through someone else ?
Why isn't God self evident ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 4:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 5:07 PM Kader has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 164 (374512)
01-04-2007 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Kader
01-04-2007 5:02 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
But God didn't show you anything, why ?
Really?
Why doesn't he speak to me ?
I have no idea.
Why do I need to learn about him(or her as you seem to prefer) through you ?
I can see no reason you should learn about GOD through me.
And why did you have to learn about her through someone else ?
I learn through what others have learned and what I experience. That is how knowledge is passed on and accumulated.
Why isn't God self evident ?
For me GOD is self evident. But that is just me.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Kader, posted 01-04-2007 5:02 PM Kader has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2007 5:10 PM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 164 (374514)
01-04-2007 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
01-04-2007 5:07 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
For me GOD is self evident. But that is just me.
Hmm, I wonder if his next post will have the word conditioning in it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 5:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 88 of 164 (374517)
01-04-2007 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
01-04-2007 3:56 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
Made man. Not pretending to be man, or part man part god, but Man.
But the Nicene Creed claims that Jesus was God, "true God from true God," it doesn't say he gave up his divinity.
So as a Christian I believe that before His birth, and after His Ascension, Jesus is totally divine, however while He lived among us, He was totally Human.
Someone who can bring themselves back to life after three days, and then make himself a God has to be more than totally human!
Did He set a timer or something before He became a man so that after a certain amount of time He reverted back to being a God?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 3:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 01-04-2007 5:23 PM Brian has replied
 Message 95 by Rob, posted 01-05-2007 9:40 AM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 164 (374520)
01-04-2007 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Brian
01-04-2007 5:17 PM


Re: more "so what?" assertions.
But the Nicene Creed claims that Jesus was God, "true God from true God," it doesn't say he gave up his divinity.
But Brian it does, and I even quoted the part for you in Message 81.
quote:
Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;
Someone who can bring themselves back to life after three days, and then make himself a God has to be more than totally human!
Did He set a timer or something before He became a man so that after a certain amount of time He reverted back to being a God?
No, Jesus did not do that, GOD did. GOD raised Him from the dead.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Brian, posted 01-04-2007 5:17 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 5:11 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 164 (374522)
01-04-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by New Cat's Eye
01-04-2007 5:10 PM


Gish Gallop
Kader keeps bouncing around and never seems to follow any subject or line of thought.
He had asked me why I believe the divinity of Jesus to be logical, and I responded. His next response though had nothing to do with that issue but instead wandered off into signs or something.
It is tiresome work for an old man to have to prance like a pony.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2007 5:10 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Kader, posted 01-05-2007 9:51 AM jar has replied

  
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