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Author Topic:   A Miracle by Definition
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 38 (372447)
12-27-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by anastasia
12-27-2006 1:14 PM


Re: Miracles
anastasia writes:
And what if you found no evidence of scam or natural cause?
You're looking at it backwards.
If there is evidence of a scam, it's a scam. If there is evidence of some natural cause, it's natural. If there is no evidence of either, the cause is unknown.
My point was that one subset of humanity attributes the unknown to "supernatural" causes. It isn't fair to tar us all with the same brush by calling it "human nature".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by anastasia, posted 12-27-2006 1:14 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 17 of 38 (372448)
12-27-2006 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
12-27-2006 1:48 PM


Re: Miracles
NJ:
Miracles have a few purposes. They are for edification, and they are the product of deep faith. We are asked to believe that God can do all things. Often times we don't believe that, or if we claim to, sometimes its just lip service. But Jesus also said that we have not because we ask not
I would say that miracles are wonderful gifts on those He bestows upon. However, I could go the rest of my life without seeing one miracle and still have a deep relationship with the Father. At the same time, we shouldn't speak disparagingly about them either.
So how do you feel about the miracle of Mohammed's Night Journey, in which he ascended into heaven from Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, had a personal encounter with Jesus, Moses, and Abraham, and learned the rules of Muslim prayer?
Do you consider it a wonderful gift bestowed upon Mohammed? Are you edified by it? Do you consider it the product of deep faith? Does it lead you to believe God can do all things? Or do you just give the possibility lip service? Do you speak disparagingly of it?
__

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-27-2006 3:07 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 38 (372456)
12-27-2006 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Archer Opteryx
12-27-2006 2:04 PM


Re: Miracles
So how do you feel about the miracle of Mohammed's Night Journey, in which he ascended into heaven from Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, had a personal encounter with Jesus, Moses, and Abraham, and learned the rules of Muslim prayer?
Do you consider it a wonderful gift bestowed upon Mohammed? Are you edified by it? Do you consider it the product of deep faith? Does it lead you to believe God can do all things? Or do you just give the possibility lip service? Do you speak disparagingly of it?
I don't know much about it. I know that Mohammed was supposed to have had some sort of revelation while in Jerusalem, but aside from that, I don't know the particulars of the story. If you give me a chapter and verse I can crack open my Qur'an and check it out.

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-27-2006 2:04 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 19 of 38 (372467)
12-27-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
12-27-2006 2:00 PM


Re: Miracles
Ringo writes:
My point was that one subset of humanity attributes the unknown to "supernatural" causes. It isn't fair to tar us all with the same brush by calling it "human nature".
I get what you are trying to say, but just what would you term this other 'nature'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 38 (372475)
12-27-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by anastasia
12-27-2006 4:30 PM


Re: Miracles
anastasia writes:
It isn't fair to tar us all with the same brush by calling it "human nature".
I get what you are trying to say, but just what would you term this other 'nature'?
It is "human nature" to be defensive when we are attacked, or to eat too much when food is abundant.
It is not human nature to attribute all unexplained phenomena to "miracles". It is human nature to try to figure it out. If anything, those who jump to the "miracle" conclusion have a stunted curiosity.
So, a miracle could be dfined as, "a lazy explanation for an unexplained event."

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 21 of 38 (372505)
12-28-2006 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
12-27-2006 3:07 PM


Re: Miracles
I don't know much about it. I know that Mohammed was supposed to have had some sort of revelation while in Jerusalem, but aside from that, I don't know the particulars of the story. If you give me a chapter and verse I can crack open my Qur'an and check it out.
Any search portal:
mohammed night journey
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 38 (372507)
12-28-2006 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by nator
12-27-2006 9:26 AM


Just because we don't understand why something happened doesn't mean that anything woo-woo is going on.
It also doesn't mean that anything woo-woo isn't going on either. We cannot discredit God until we find a different explanation. At the same time, all explanations are equally valid which explain the event.
What to you would make a satisfactory non-"woo-woo" explaination?
J0N

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 38 (372508)
12-28-2006 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by VerifyMe
12-27-2006 4:19 AM


well i think theres an infinite number of situations and variables to be able to ever guess.
I was under the influence that within a given amount of space there is a given amount of matter. And that the given amount of matter is a finite amount which has a finite number of ways in which it can be aranged.
Anyway...
...[A] miracle is something which is against the odds like winning Powerball, but also something with exceptional or unusual circumstances.
...
If there is no evidence as in the cancer just disappears and nothing can be found which may indicate why, then theres something more to it.
So, in your first statement you have two qualifiers for a miracle:
1) against odds
2) exceptional or unusual circumstances
A problem I see:
It is not against the odds that the Powerball be won by someone, just against the odds that a selected for (special) individual will win. Now, if the Powerball is won (something against the odds), would not the fact that it was won by a special individual qualify as an "exceptional or unusual circumstance"?
So, to the rest of the country (meaning here the people who place no importance on you) looking at the Powerball game, they will see you winning as against the odds in the sense of you being selected out for, however, they will not see anything exceptional about it as you are of no importance to the rest of the country. Yet, from your persepective you are a special individual (because you are you, and to you you are special in being yourself).
Which means that the two perspectives can give us two answers to the question of whether winning the Powerball is a miracle or not (providing we use your idea of miracle, which seems to centre around probability and odds): (1) Only qualifier one is satisfied, since it was against the odds that you as a particular person would win, however there is nothing unusual about it, because someone was bound to win anyway and you are not special to the particular set of observers, or (2) both qualifiers are satisfied because from your perspective it was still against the odds that you would win, but because you are important to yourself, it makes it (in your eyes) an exceptional circumstance that you should be "chosen" by the system.
I think having a definition of "miracle" which allows an event to be both miraculous and non-miraculous at the same time depending on the point of view of the observers is not a very strong definition.
A good definition should describe the qualities of something regardless of perspective or involvement in the issue. A great definition should be unarguable. For example, defnining a hat with the qualifier that it is beatiful is a poor definition, since from some perspectives it may not be beautiful and therefore does not meet the qualifiying condition and is no longer a hat. But the definition should allow the defined article to remain itself from all perspectives. Defining the hat with a qualifier such as "red" is a better definition, because all perspectives will see the hat as red (it is an objective quality) and therefore it will remain a hat no matter who views it.
On to your second statement:
Why is it any less miraculous if it cannot be explained? It is fully possibly to explain how someone may win the Powerball (they buy the winning ticket/find it in the gutter)--so in the Powerball case, an explanation does not demote it from being a miracle; instead, only that it was against odds and unusual. Why then in the case of cancer does the fact that it can be explained suddenly make it less of a miracle? It is still equally as improbable, whether explainable or not.
I suppose it depends on your view on time... Is it infinite?
What does whether time is infinite or not have to do with the miraculous/non-miraculous nature of an event happening here and now?
J0N

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by VerifyMe, posted 12-27-2006 4:19 AM VerifyMe has replied

Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 24 of 38 (372559)
12-28-2006 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jon
12-28-2006 5:53 AM


Occam's Barber Shop
Jon:
We cannot discredit God until we find a different explanation.
You mean 'rule out a miracle' not 'discredit God.'
I know the two ideas are linked in the minds of some people. But they are far from being the same thing.
At the same time, all explanations are equally valid which explain the event.
No, they are not.
Occam's razor, remember. It really works.
We can explain Kent Hovind's tax problems any number of ways. Among some of the explanations: (1) Hovind and his wife evaded taxes; (2) Hovind and his wife are citizens of an invisible country apart from the United States and thus are not obliged to obey US laws even though they live and work inside US borders; (3) Hovind and his wife actually paid their taxes in full, but invisible space unicorns from the planet Zembar vacuumed all the money out of government accounts and falsified all the records to make it appear the Hovinds were up to no good, then programmed IRS agents to remember events that never took place and programmed the Hovinds to forget all the taxes they really paid and say outrageous things in their own defense, just so the unicorns could enjoy a good laugh about the whole gag at the next Interplanetar Invisible Space Unicorn Association convention on a secret asteroid in the Crab Nebula.
Are all these explanations of the event equally valid? No.
Your assertion is manifestly false for additional reasons if you mean to discuss scientific validity. To possess scientific validity an explanation has to be supported by observable data that can be tested.
__
Edited by Archer Opterix, : supplied official name of convention.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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Kader
Member (Idle past 3727 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 25 of 38 (372562)
12-28-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by VerifyMe
12-27-2006 4:19 AM


If the doctor can explain why there is suddenly no cancer, then it is just an occurance of a very improbable event. If there is no evidence as in the cancer just disappears and nothing can be found which may indicate why, then theres something more to it.
If you mean God by something more to it, I disagree. Ignorance doesn't prove the existance of God.
Otherwise, yes what you said is true, there is something more, that we just don't yet understand.

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 26 of 38 (372626)
12-28-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-26-2006 11:29 PM


How about a change in the law?
Phat
A miracle hmmm..?
How about a controlled experiment in which a device recording information on the intensity of a radiation source at 2 different locations {the 1st half the distance from the radiation source as the 2nd} wherein it can be shown under the introduction of prayer to the deity of your choice that the resulting data from the two locations changes from the expected result by a factor that can only be the result of said prayer.
Since the expected result is in accordance with the inverse square law and we can show that it is a result of the prayer consistently then we could attribute it to a miracle if, say, the result showed a inverse cube law local to the phenomena and that we could move this experiment to any place and get that same result. Iwould be satisfied with that myself. Any takers?

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VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 38 (372637)
12-28-2006 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
12-28-2006 5:56 AM


Upon reflection I agree with most of your post, but to answer your question
Why then in the case of cancer does the fact that it can be explained suddenly make it less of a miracle? It is still equally as improbable, whether explainable or not.
Going by my definition (which after reading your post, I can admit the flaws), the fact that a situation can be explained does not change the probability, but to me eliminates the exceptional circumstances. If the doctor said “X caused Y to change so we could treat the cancer with Z”, as apposed to “ Well we treated the cancer with Z and it suddenly disappeared”, the the former seems a lot less miraculous.
What does whether time is infinite or not have to do with the miraculous/non-miraculous nature of an event happening here and now?
My statement “I suppose it depends on your view on time... Is it infinite?” was in response to this from Phat:
Is everything in life bound to happen eventually according to the laws of statistical improbability and probability?
The probability of something happening depends on the number of trials an event has had. If a dice was thrown every minute for the rest of time if it was infinite, a six is infinitely more likely to occur eventually than if time was finite, as there would be a limited number of rolls and always the possibility of a six not being rolled in that finite time.
So if you believe time goes on forever, the chances of everything in life being bound to happen are infinitely greater than if time was finite, and there was only a number of finite situations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 12-28-2006 5:56 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
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VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 38 (372638)
12-28-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:01 PM


If you mean God by something more to it, I disagree. Ignorance doesn't prove the existance of God.
Otherwise, yes what you said is true, there is something more, that we just don't yet understand.
I agree completely. A lack of understanding does not prove the existance of god, but it does mean people are more likely to name it a miracle because they don't understand it. Which is I believe why the many "miracles" throughout history were merely a fill in the blanks with Goddidit reasoning.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 38 (372678)
12-29-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by VerifyMe
12-28-2006 6:34 PM


Going by my definition (which after reading your post, I can admit the flaws), the fact that a situation can be explained does not change the probability, but to me eliminates the exceptional circumstances.
That doesn't follow. We can easily explain how you managed to win the lottery with the Powerball ticket in the gutter. Perhaps Joe Schmoe dropped it on his way to work, or some fool tossed it out their window thinking it was a loser. If we can explain how the ticket is a winner (because it matches the chosen numbers) and how it got in your hands, does that make winning the Powerball for you to be any less of a miracle?
So if you believe time goes on forever, the chances of everything in life being bound to happen are infinitely greater than if time was finite, and there was only a number of finite situations.
But for that to be true, life too would have to be infinite, not just time. Suppose time is infinite, does that give me an infinite probability that I will walk on Mars? Of course it doesn't, because in 70 more years ( ), I will be dead. And after that, the chance of Jon (me) ever standing on Mars becomes impossible despite the infinity of time. And, since we are pretty sure that everyone will die, every mountain will fall, every star will burn out, etc., the question of whether time is infinite or not still has no bearing on the miraculous/non-miraculous nature of an event.
J0N

This message is a reply to:
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VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 38 (372680)
12-29-2006 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
12-29-2006 12:33 AM


That doesn't follow. We can easily explain how you managed to win the lottery with the Powerball ticket in the gutter. Perhaps Joe Schmoe dropped it on his way to work, or some fool tossed it out their window thinking it was a loser. If we can explain how the ticket is a winner (because it matches the chosen numbers) and how it got in your hands, does that make winning the Powerball for you to be any less of a miracle?
Exaclty, which is why i now see the flaws of my definition. I merely used that definition to answer one of your previous questions because the context of that question related to that definition.
But for that to be true, life too would have to be infinite, not just time. Suppose time is infinite, does that give me an infinite probability that I will walk on Mars? Of course it doesn't, because in 70 more years ( ), I will be dead. And after that, the chance of Jon (me) ever standing on Mars becomes impossible despite the infinity of time. And, since we are pretty sure that everyone will die, every mountain will fall, every star will burn out, etc., the question of whether time is infinite or not still has no bearing on the miraculous/non-miraculous nature of an event.
This is true.

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