Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.

OK, getting back to one of our side debates about beliefs versus actions. Logic says that we choose our beliefs and also our actions. If a guy does the right (altruistic, assumedly) actions yet professes no belief, will the guy be judged on his choice of belief? If so, and if the individual really has no free will in the matter, who is responsible for the judgment?

Logic says nothing of the kind.Neither you nor, nor I nor Amin, nor Elizah, nor Chang chose their beliefs - we were all born into them. And our actions are conditioned by our predispositions, upbringing and circumstances. You always start from the wrong premise.

There is no answer to those questions until you first define the God in question.

Because Jesus Himself said that calling Him "Lord" doesn't cut it.

quote:

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Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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Our debate is about empty beliefs versus actions. I believe in actions as strongly as you believe in some guy rising from the dead. The difference is that your belief has no meaning.

You're not going back far enough: Is a car necessary at all? What does "necessary" mean?

Having the option of a car gives a man free will to not have to walk, as does a bicycle, as does a skateboard. Necessity is the mother of all inventions. Evil must have been a necessary invention. God only knows why. Some say that evil does not always appear to be evil. All that glitters isn't gold, however. I'm not sure why God invented/allowed evil. My argument, however, is that the reason was not to be petty, vindictive, or even clueless. Perhaps our question should be why was evil necessary? Some things that are bad for us are not cursed. Do we usually curse the one who invented alcohol, for example?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

God invented alcohol. What necessity was its mother?Evil "must have been" a necessary invention because you need it to make your theology work.

All I know is that evil is an observable daily fact.I'm not one to say that its necessary, yet see that it is clearly ubiquitous. GDR seems to think that actions need the proper motivation. I can see his point. If I simply give spare change to the creative homeless guy spinning his sign on the corner, and if i am doing it to alleviate my conscience, perhaps I am not doing enough.

The position you mention is the "What's in it for me" theology. For the kid you kneel down to talk to it is an acknowledgement that you are really listening and paying attention TO THEM. Whether it makes you feel good or whether you are really wondering if you are going to be able to get back up doesn't enter into what the kid experiences.

What does the homeless guy care about your motivation? His life or death don't depend on your motivation. If feeding him is not "enough", what is?

In other words, what you are emphasizing is "Whats in it for THEM"? I can't feed all of them. You both have convicted me somewhat, however. I tend to be selfish. Perhaps if I did unto others the way that I EXPECT God to DO unto ME, I would find the answer.Sometimes at our store, we ask for donations for Turkey Bucks...a charity to feed the homeless during the holidays. Some people, when asked, claim that it is THEY who are needy and that somebody should help THEM.Of course, when big business asks for donations, what happens is that they donate the total sum, match it 50%, and get a 30+% tax write-off on it all.So in conclusion, I believe that God watches our intentions and motivations and expects us to be less selfish. Hopefully, I will someday receive the message and apply it.

Jesus said you should sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't say you should go into debt trying to feed all of them. He didn't say you should neglect your own children to feed the poor. It's your decision how much you do to help the poor. The only option that isn't on the table is zero. Forget God. Just do what the bumper sticker says, "Do unto others as you would expect THEM to do unto you."

Im not sure what I expect anymore. Compulsive gamblers are noted for their sense of entitlement, and I have felt this before...but I never ask anyone for help except God (or my family) Were I homeless, I would expect the government to help me somehow...which is everyone, I suppose. But I never would expect handouts from any strangers.

What do you think the Golden Rule means?