Are Catholics and Protestants that different?

Actually the Roman Catholic Church accepts that there are varying opinions on the subject and I cannot find any authoritative and firm Doctrine on it, only references to Dogma and even those seem to also recognize other points of view. see Catholic EncyclopediaActually, even the pronouncements of the Pope are limited in both content and scope. Also, that is not all that different from some Protestant Churches, for example the Anglican Communion that looks to the Archbishop of Cantebury.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Another source of contention between Protestants and Catholics is baptism. What is baptism and what does it mean?Many Catholics believe in an old Roman custom that posits that you must be baptised in the name of Jesus or when you die, you will not experience life in the hereafter.This belief of baptismal regeneration is completely misses the point and the purpose of baptism. I believe that it is grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Baptism is the declaration of salvation, not itself the salvation. Babies getting their head sprinkled with water is just babies getting their head sprinkled with water. One must make a personal choice to come to Christ. Children can't do that, and needn't worry about them because they are covered by their innocence.The greatest proof is the penitent criminal on the cross, in Luke."One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

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But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

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Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

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Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:39-43"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith”and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” not by works, so that no one can boast." -Ephesians 2:8-9"The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

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They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ”you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God”he and his whole family." -Acts 16:29-34As you can see, faith precedes baptism. Baptism is merely the outward manifestation of an inward conviction from the Spirit.There are a few verses that make allusions to baptism because it uses washing terms, similar to the Mikvah, but it is not matter of salvation, but rather of obedience."He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." -Titus 3:5-7"Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

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In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

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"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

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Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." -John 3:1-8

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

Ah.... Silly me

Again, you are misstating what happens and in fact that too is not even a difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic.The Rite of Baptism is common to both Protestants and Roman Catholics. During Infant Baptism the parents and God-parents make commitments related to raising the child. They also renew THEIR personal commitments.The vows that were taken for the child are assumed by the child when he or she grows up and is confirmed. I have posted the exact text of the Rite here at EvC for all to read.For a transcript and description see Message 1Before you folk simply believe the nonsense put out by the Evangelical, Fundamentalist and Pentecostal sects, check to see if they are true. In most cases they are just plain false and the result of ignorance.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm still not sure how pluralism snuck into this thread Strictly speaking pluralism is the view that all religions are equal to a degree, but not as equal as relavitism would have them be.The Catholic Church does not promote religious indifference, in whole or in part. In other words, a Muslim does not have faith in Christ, but just because a Lutheran does, a Catholic cannot blindly accept the Lutherans as equals in other areas.What the church has been attempting is not pluralism, it is ecumenism. Ecumenism is an effort to unite all of christianity (I'm sure you know that) The Pope is not striving to unite the church under the leadership or doctrine of any other denomination, which proves the point that other sects are not to be viewed as equal.It is a matter of finding common ground so as to make them all Catholic. It is large scale 'witnessing' if you will.Since Vatican II the Vatican has made some poor choices in ecumenism, resulting in a church that today more resembles the church of the Reformation than it does Catholicism. It is an issue of great proportion and results in much division in the church itself, but too complicated for the present discussion.Suffice it to say that the Vatican and especially JP II have sent a message that religious indifference is ok, and well...the church is losing more members than ever, go figure. The end is a worthy one IMO, but the means to it are suspect to many.

Indeed. Are you then saying that infant baptism is merely a formality and has nothing to do with salvation? If it was just a dog-and-pony show I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. But many Catholics, including Anastasia, has relayed to me that infant baptism serves a greater function than mere formalities. They say that because of Original Sin, if an infant dies before the ceremony is conducted, that child will go to purgatory.Purgatory is a whole other matter that I disagree with, but we don't need to get into that just yet. Yes, I'm familiar with confirmation-- another dog-and-pony show as young teenagers are basically made to go in there and pledge an allegiance to God that they might not be ready for. The Scriptures are quite clear that we have to born again. That isn't a denomination. A lot of people seem to think that "Born again" Christians are apart of a denomination. But it isn't at all. We all have to born again. It goes with the old adage, "Born twice, die once. Born once, doe twice." The point being, you can't expect people to be born again by being told to. We all have to make a personal choice from our heart. Jar, I'm familiar with the Bible and I know what it says on the matter. I'm not regurgitating things I heard at church about Catholics or any other group because my church doesn't focus on specific trivial matters like that-- they focus on the Word.To add, I don't think there is anything wrong, per say, with a formal ceremony where you are dedicating a child to God. But if we are under the impression that any man, holy or not, can do what only God can do-- which is save the lost, then I have to say a word against it.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

Again but what you are posting has NOTHING to do with the differences between Protestants and Christians.You seem to think that Born Again has something to do with Protestant or Roman Catholic Doctrine, or that there is some identifiable feature that shows someone is born again. No, I am not saying that it is merely a formality. What I said, and what I repeat, is that it is common to both Protestants and Roman Catholics. If it is common to both it cannot be a difference. Again simply more pointless nonsense and NOT a difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics.The Fact is that both Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches have a Rite of Confirmation.Those churches that hump away on Born Again can well be Christians, BUT it is a difference between them and all the rest of Christianity, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians and Anglicans among others.The thread is on differences between Protestants and Roman Catholics. You and Buz keep trying to bring in things related only to a subgroup of Protestants.That has NOTHING to do with the topic.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Various protestants are not on the same page, but there are major doctrinal differences which define them as being protestants in general.

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It's my understanding that there are very few things that ALL Protestants differ with Roman Catholicism on.The only one I certainly know of is that they do not recognize the Pope.

Jar, its on topic 100%. You can't just say, "Catholics and Protestants both believe in baptism. Case closed." There are major differences in what perception baptism is and what it does between Catholics and Protestants. That is sufficient enough to keep it more than applicable to the topic. Identifiable feature? How did I make allusions to that? I've never had a "confirmation." Here's the thing, baptism is that confirmation. Baptism was always meant to be the declaration of salvation-- not the salvation itself. The whole thing about confirmation as a formality is really just an old tradition that is nowhere in the Bible. And again, if Catholics believe that good works can save a persons soul, they are in direct contradiction with the Word. That alone is enough to make a marked difference between Catholics and Protestants. You can't just say that both groups acknowledge baptism when they mean two totally different things.And what we are doing is distinguishing the differences and discussing them. Every one of those has affiliations to the RCC in one way or another, Anglicans and Episcopalians, especially. But what does that have to do with anything? I've never mentioned any subgroup of Protestants. Consequently, you have and continue to bring it up. I am speaking solely about doctrines and whether or not it is biblical or not.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

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Really. Then why have Popes sat down with leaders of other faiths? Why has the Roman Catholic Church been in discussions with the Anglican Communion for over a decade?

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Yes, and didn't the current Pope just go to Turkey to meet with Muslim religious leaders and actually pray in a mosque while visiting it?That would seem to be recognizing that Muslims and Catholics worship the same god.

The controversy extends beyond the Pope. Protestants, by and large, disagree with the handling and the meaning of "The Church." The Church was somehow synthesized to mean, the Roman Catholic Church, when it very clearly means "the body of believers." Secondly, they disagree on the handling of fellowship. The RCC seems to place a lot of stock in organization as if the "Church" was supposed to run more like a business.They also disagree on the terminology of priests. Priests refer to themselves as "Father," where Jesus says do not call any man father in terms of reverence, for we have only one Father who is in heaven.They also disagree that priests and nuns relinquish their marital rites. Protestants believe that celibacy is perfectly acceptable and honorable personal choice, however, keeping people out of an official capacity to serve the church needs while married is deemed an unfair burden. Paul was explicit on the point that relinquishing marriage is perfectly fine, but so is marriage and should not be looked down upon.There is also the doctrine of baptismal regeneration which we have recently been going over.There is also the issue of purgatory, which is not biblically based.There is also the issue of Mary's role, which we've already gone over.There is the issue of emphasis of repeating words as incantations.There is also the issue of "confession," where a priest can absolve you of sin. Protestants believe that confessing one's sins is totally fine, but that you need not confess it to a priest for absolution.There's also the issue of many Protestant churches believing the "Harlot," spoken about in Revelation is referring to the RCC.There are a lot of other sources of contention as well. These are the few off the top of my head. But none of these are irreconcilable, IMO. We basically believe in the most important doctrines and could bridge the minor gaps if only we could come to an agreement.

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"With derision the atheist points out that there can be no God because this world is so unfair. Without hesitation, I concur with him. Indeed, we live in an unfair world because of all sorts of social ills and perils. I must not contend with such a sentiment because it is factual-- we don't live in a fair world. Grace is unambiguous proof that we live in an unfair world. I received salvation when I deserved condemnation. Yes, indeed this world is unfair." -Andrew Jaramillo-

Sorry NJ but once again you simply don't know what you are talking about.Episcopalians, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians are Protestants. Luther, Knox, Zwingli, Henry VIII; these are names that define the Reformation, define the Protestant Movement. I pointed out to you that there are Protestant Churches where the Rites of Baptism and Confirmation are the same as in the Roman Catholic Church.What you have brought up is NOT a difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic Doctrine but between dogma and practices in some Protestant sects with the vast majority of Christians Churches, Protestant and Roman Catholic.That is NOT related to the topic, it is a difference between some sub-sects of Protestantism and the rest of Christianity, Protestant and Roman Catholic. Do you guys ever even read the Bible? Did you listen to todays lessons? Do you know who John the Baptist is and what he did? Did you even bother reading the Rite of Confirmation? What is contained in the Rites of Baptism and Confirmation?And again, it has NOTHING to do with the topic. I have shown specific examples where Protestant Doctrine and Roman Catholic Doctrine are the same. Any difference that you bring up then is not a difference between Protestant Doctrine and Roman Catholic Doctrine but a difference between some sub-sect of Protestantism and the whole rest of Christianity, Protestant, Roman Catholic and Orthodox. Yes, that you havfe which has NOTHING to do with the topic.The topic is differences between Protestant and Roman Catholic Doctrine, not differences between Protest and Roman Catholic Doctrine versus some Fundie/Evangelical/Pentecostal Doctrines.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jar, one of the subjects of the OP are sacramentalism and the mass.Confirmation, baptism and all the sacriments are on topic for this thread as per the OP. If Phat wishes to narrow the focus he may do so, but as it stands the topic perameters are quite wide. Carry on. If Admin or another uninvolved admin wishes to weigh in here to referee that might become necessary. In the meantime, please refrain from nitpicking on the topic issue.TO ALL CONCERNED: DO NOT RESPOND TO MODERATION IN THIS THREAD. IF YOU WISH TO CHALLENGE THIS ACTION PLEASE TAKE IT TO THE MODERATION FORUM. THANK YOU

Again that is NOT a difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics. Today I was talking to Father Earl, a Lutheran (Protestant) Priest. Again, you are simply wrong. Today at Church, Protestant Episcopal, we said confession. Just as in a Roman Catholic Church the Priest asked GOD's forgiveness for our sins. Protestants AND Roman Catholics believe that one can confess privately as well as through a Priest. Also Protestants and Roman Catholics agree that it is GOD that forgives sins.Directly for the BCP: It is GOD not the priest that forgives sins in BOTH the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Once again that is NOT a difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic Doctrine.The sacraments in Protestant Churches like the Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, Anglican and other Protestant Churches is virtually identical to those in the Roman Catholic Church.The above churches also celebrate the Mass.Once again, there simple is not a big difference between Protestant and Roman Catholic Doctrine there.As almost every Sunday, I celebrated Mass, the Holy Eucharist in a Protestant Church.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion