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Author Topic:   Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 150 (137548)
08-27-2004 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
08-27-2004 11:07 PM


1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
The above words in verse one are the very words of Jesus on the cross!!
14: I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint
16:..... they pierced my hands and my feet.
18: They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Ok, jar all the verses but the above ones can apply to either Job and Jesus. You still have the problem of these verses, so you are the one who's argument must remove something from context, for these verses of Psalms 22 cannot apply to Job while all the verses of Psalms 22 are good with Jesus.
And while we're at it, I'll ask you the same of Isaiah 53 that I asked PD. Which do those texts best typlify, something historical or the crucifixion of Jesus?
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-27-2004 10:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 11:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 11:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-28-2004 11:09 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 111 by ramoss, posted 09-03-2004 11:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 150 (137550)
08-27-2004 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 11:37 PM


Or they can be, as I said, simply a general lament.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:37 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 93 of 150 (137599)
08-28-2004 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 11:16 PM


quote:
1. Please document that the yearly sacrifice and sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat of the Holy of Holies in the temple was only for unintentional sins??
I already did in Message 71. Plus the day of atonement is not listed in Deuteronomy.
Leviticus 4
1The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2Speak to the Israelite people thus: When a person unwittingly incurs guilt in regard to any of the Lords commandments about things not to be done, and does one of them
quote:
2. Even if, I say if, those required yearly sacrifices were for intentional sins, aren't you thereby admitting that in both the OT and NT God required sacrificial atonement for sins? The Bible, both OT and NT teach that all humans have sinned.
You saying that the sin sacrifice is for intentional sin also, doesn't make it so. Show me that the sin sacrifice was required for ALL intentional sins and that it was required by God when they came out of Egypt.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 08-28-2004 11:08 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 94 of 150 (137603)
08-28-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 10:27 PM


quote:
PD, I'm afraid you're showing gross ignorance of Biblical doctrine and understanding.
Doctrine: Something taught as the principles of a religion, political party, etc.
I'm quite aware of church doctrine and am arguing agaist it.
quote:
please be honest and tell whether this more closely typlifies the suffering Jesus NT account or historical Israel?
I've already showed you why I don't feel that Jesus matches ALL the statements in Isaiah 53.
No offspring, not diseased, not disfigured, and not dispised by all. These examples knock Jesus out of the running.
May I suggest that you show me how Jesus matches up with ALL of Isaiah 53 since you believe that he matches all of them.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 10:27 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 150 (137605)
08-28-2004 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 11:37 PM


And while we're at it, I'll ask you the same of Isaiah 53 that I asked PD. Which do those texts best typlify, something historical or the crucifixion of Jesus?
Sorry, I missed that part. Perhaps you were editing while I was replying.
IMHO, Isaiah 53 is simply a continuation of the whole book. The book of Isaiah is to be taken as a whole and not something to be broken down into little bites. And when you look at the whole book, it seems that it is speaking of Israel, not a messianic prophecy.
Isaiah seems to be yet another tale from the early formitive days of the identification phase of Jewishness, when they were still a minority, perhaps in the transition from semi-nomadic to city dwellers.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:37 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 08-28-2004 11:40 PM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 150 (137761)
08-28-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by purpledawn
08-28-2004 9:43 AM


I already did in Message 71. Plus the day of atonement is not listed in Deuteronomy.
Leviticus 4
1The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2Speak to the Israelite people thus: When a person unwittingly incurs guilt in regard to any of the Lords commandments about things not to be done, and does one of them ]
Uh Uh, PD, wrong text and wrong sacrifice. This in Lev. 4 only pertained to unintentional sins, but you must go to Leviticus 16 for the biggy, i.e. the Day of Atonement sacrifice for ALL THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE in which the high priest is to go ONLY ONCE A YEAR INTO THE HOLY OF HOLIES OF THE TEMPLE and sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat. This is the only time anyone including the high priest was to go into that holy compartment of the temple during the whole year.
1. Your Lev. 4 unintentional atonement was not regularly, but only when one person, the priest, the ruler, or the whole nation unintentionally committed a sin. No unintentional sin, no sacrifice required.
2. Your Lev 4 atonement was not offered in the special Holy of Holies booth behind the veil as was the Day of Atonement regularly required yearly sacrifice.
You saying that the sin sacrifice is for intentional sin also, doesn't make it so. Show me that the sin sacrifice was required for ALL intentional sins and that it was required by God when they came out of Egypt.
Done. See above.
This link below states the process of the atonement sacrifice quite well. For verification of what is said here, go to Leviticus 16 and read the chapter.
THE DAY OF ATONEMENT This atoning sacrifice was no common sacrifice, by an ordinary priest under the Mosaic Law (read Lev. 16). Only the High Priest could participate. A special day of the year was designated by God -- the tenth day of the seventh month of the Jewish year. There was to be a "holy convocation" at the tabernacle; a fast was required; as the people were to rest from any labor on that day. After bathing himself and putting on the special priestly clothing, the High Priest was to take "two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering." He would cast lots over the two goats-- "one for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat." One, after the sins of the people were confessed over it, was to be "presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, to be sent into the wilderness. . ." (thence to be called the scapegoat). The blood of the ram was to be offered as a sin offering to the Lord for the sins of the people, and taken into the Most Holy Place and there sprinkled on the mercy seat. In turn, the blood of the ram, was offered for the sins of the people of Israel. ITS SIGNIFICANCE The atonement, on the one day of the year -- in addition to the many other daily and monthly offerings -- held a special significance. It stood out as the one, yearly atonement for all the transgressions of the people during the past year.
http//http://www.tyngsborochurchofchrist.org/jesus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2004 9:43 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2004 11:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 150 (137768)
08-28-2004 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
08-28-2004 11:09 AM


Jar, you're evading my specific question regarding the chapter. The whole book covers many subjects, but you need to focus on this chapter and answer my question for the purpose of this thread topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 08-28-2004 11:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-28-2004 11:46 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 150 (137771)
08-28-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Buzsaw
08-28-2004 11:40 PM


I did answer your question and in no uncertain terms. You cannot pull the chapter out and consider it seperately from the rest of the book. Period.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 08-28-2004 11:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2004 8:26 PM jar has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 99 of 150 (137810)
08-29-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Buzsaw
08-28-2004 11:08 PM


Leviticus 4 defines the purpose of the sin offering.
Leviticus 16 give the guidelines for the Day of Atonement.
Leviticus 16
11 Aaron offers a bull as a sin offering for his own sin. (Lev 4)
15 Slaughter one goat for the sin offering (Lev 4) for the people.
15 He shall sprinkle it on the atonment cover and in front of it. In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. (this is not atonement for the people)
16 He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. (Again not for the people)
18 Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. (Still not for the people)
20 When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat.
21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites - ALL their sins - and put them on the goat's head. (This goat is never sacrificed/slaughtered. It is released into the desert.)
The one animal that does supposedly carry ALL of Israel's sins is not sacrificed. It is turned loose in the desert or cut off from the people, so to speak.
As I showed in Message 71 Chapter 20 and 24 have offences with death penalities, which don't have the option of atonement by sacrifice.
Do you really believe that if Aaron committed any of the sins in Chapter 20, 24 or murder, that he would be able to present the Day of Atonement sacrifices? If they followed the rules, he would be dead or cast out.
Leviticus 23:28-30
Do no work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God. Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people. I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on that day.
So even on this day that, according to you, is supposed to atone for ALL sins (intentional or not) these two offenses have harsh penalties and apparently no atonement options.
Again the Day of Atonement was not mentioned in Deuteronomy.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Buzsaw, posted 08-28-2004 11:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2004 9:27 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 150 (137922)
08-29-2004 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 12:00 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
buzzsaw writes:
Go to nearly all the epistles of the NT ...
OK,I'm going. Here is one:
1 Tim 3:16=And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
John 20:28(Thomas called Jesus God.}
"And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
Colosians 2:8,9 -Paul said Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily. "Christ. For in him dwelleth all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
Luke 8:39-After Jesus healed a demon possessed man, Jesus said:
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."
Revelation 22:6, 16 -The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same.
(v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."
(v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches "
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-29-2004 06:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 12:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2004 9:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 150 (137931)
08-29-2004 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
08-28-2004 11:46 PM


I did answer your question and in no uncertain terms. You cannot pull the chapter out and consider it seperately from the rest of the book. Period.
Nonsense Jar. Better read the book. It covers many subjects and this chapter is exclusively a prophecy of the suffering messiah/savior as I have shown to be the case, having shown that some of the verses in the chapter could not apply to any other person or event in history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 08-28-2004 11:46 PM jar has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 150 (137937)
08-29-2004 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
08-29-2004 7:12 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
OK,I'm going. Here is one:1 Tim 3:16=And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,.......
PB, you need to get your Greek text out and you will see that the original does not have the word theos in it. It has been added by the KJ translators which action, imo, is contrary to God's clear instruction concerning the handling of his words. It should be simply "who was manifested....." and it's not included in my American Standard Bible.
John 20:28(Thomas called Jesus God.}
"And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
Colosians 2:8,9 -Paul said Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily. "Christ. For in him dwelleth all of the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
This is a rare occasion where Jesus is actually addressed as God by an apostle, but one must remember the context of the book of John, for in John 14:28 Jesus plainly states the God, his father is greater than he, so he the son, always assumes the subordinate relationship to Jehovah his father. He is referred to as either the son of God, son of man or Lord of us nearly everywhere else in the NT by himself and others. Jesus, being born from the Holy Spirit has the fullness of God in him and it would be in this sense here.
Revelation 22:6, 16 -The book of Revelation says that Jesus and God are the same.
(v6) "And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true; and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."
(v 16) "I, Jesus, have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches "
"God of the holy prophets" refers to Jehovah of the OT prophets, the supreme God of the universe and father of Jesus. Verse 16, of course refers to Jesus, the son. The conclusion must be reached to harmonize total scriptural context here to conclude that both the father and the son were mutually sending the angels in this case. This should not be considered to be so unusual, since the same can happen here on earth where a coordinated effort by two individuals, being earthly father and son would be used to effect a purpose or mission. One should not in either case consider the two individual entities or individuals to be one and the same entity or individuals.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-29-2004 08:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 150 (137941)
08-29-2004 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by purpledawn
08-29-2004 11:03 AM


The one animal that does supposedly carry ALL of Israel's sins is not sacrificed. It is turned loose in the desert or cut off from the people, so to speak.
You're ignoring the required yearly ram which MUST be killed and it's blood sprinkled on the mercy seat of the Holy of Holies. Why are you deceitfully sweeping this fact under your rug?
As I showed in Message 71 Chapter 20 and 24 have offences with death penalities, which don't have the option of atonement by sacrifice.
Do you really believe that if Aaron committed any of the sins in Chapter 20, 24 or murder, that he would be able to present the Day of Atonement sacrifices? If they followed the rules, he would be dead or cast out.
Leviticus 23:28-30
Do no work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the Lord your God. Anyone who does not deny himself on that day must be cut off from his people. I will destroy from among his people anyone who does any work on that day.
So even on this day that, according to you, is supposed to atone for ALL sins (intentional or not) these two offenses have harsh penalties and apparently no atonement options.
Again the Day of Atonement was not mentioned in Deuteronomy.
None of your other texts negates chapter 16, PD. True or false? This is a required yearly animal sacrifice from Jehovah God to Israel?
That's the prime debate of the topic is it not, and aren't you trying your best to deny the evidence that this regular sacrifice was required upon Israel?
If a presiding high priest is disposed in any way he will be replaced and the sacrifice will go on as required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by purpledawn, posted 08-29-2004 11:03 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 08-30-2004 2:55 AM Buzsaw has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 150 (138020)
08-30-2004 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Buzsaw
08-29-2004 9:27 PM


Buzz, let me ask you something:
Im not gonna judge you by typical Christian criteria, but let me ask you something, Buzz. How much of your theological influence has been because of association with Jehovahs Witnesses? Do you consider yourself a Witness? (In the sense of belonging to a Kingdom Hall body?) The reason that I ask is the type of responses that you give to theological questions are similar to those that I have heard from Jehovahs witnesses....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2004 9:27 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Buzsaw, posted 08-30-2004 11:38 AM Phat has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 105 of 150 (138061)
08-30-2004 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Buzsaw
08-29-2004 9:27 PM


Unintentional Sin
quote:
You're ignoring the required yearly ram which MUST be killed and it's blood sprinkled on the mercy seat of the Holy of Holies. Why are you deceitfully sweeping this fact under your rug?
Still not going to fly, Buz. No deceit, no rug!
Leviticus 16:3
This is how Aaron is to enter the sanctuary area: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.
The ram is for a burnt offering, which is not a sin offering. There's a nice little table in my Bible (NIV Study Bible) which also has under purpose for Burnt Offering:
Voluntary act of worship; atonement for unintentional sin in general; expression of devotion, commitment and complete surrender to God.
Then we have:
Numbers 15:22-31
Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses - any of the Lord's commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come - and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering a an aroma pleasing to the Lord, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering....One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien.
But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blaphemes the Lord, and that person must be cut off from his people. Because he has despised the Lord's word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.
quote:
That's the prime debate of the topic is it not, and aren't you trying your best to deny the evidence that this regular sacrifice was required upon Israel?
I agree that the Day of Atonement was a regular sacrifice once it was started and it was required of Israel by Israel, but not by God and it did not cover intentional sin. Therefore the sin sacrifices did not make atonement for ALL sin.
The main point of the OP is that God did not require sacrifices for sin, intentional or otherwise, per Jeremiah 7:22.
Therefore Jesus could not have been a sacrifice to cover ALL sin, since 1. the sin sacrifice was not used to forgive intentional sin, and 2. God didn't require it anyway for intentional or unintentional.
Leviticus is a Priest's manual, which appears IMO to have been written around or after the time of the exile. (See Message 68) I wouldn't think the priests would have had much to do until the second temple was built.
A History of the Jews by Paul Johnson Page 82-83
But whereas earlier histories and prophecies had dwelt on the sense of collective guilt, and attributed to king and leaders the wickedness which had brought down divine wrath on all, the exiled Jews now had no one to blame but their individual selves. God, wrote Exekiel, no loner punished people collectively for the sin of a leader, or the present generation for the faults of their ancestors. (Ezekiel 18) With Ezekiel it became paramount, and thereafter individual accountability became of the very essence of the Jewish religion....
Between 734 and 581 BC there were six distinct deportations of the Israelites, and more fled voluntarily to Egypt and other parts of the Near East....Thus scattered, leaderless, without a state of any of the normal supportive apparatus provided by their own government, the Jews were forced to find alternative means to preserve their special identity. So they turned to their writings - their laws, and the records of their past. From this time we hear more of the scribes. Hitherto, they had simply been secretaries, like Baruch, writing down the words of the great. Now they became an important caste, setting down in writing oral traditions, copying precious scrolls brought from the ruined Temple, ordering, editing and rationalizing the Jewish archives. For a time indeed they were more important than the priests....The exile was conducive to scribal effort. ...
Hence it was during the Exile that ordinary Jews were first disciplined into the regular practice of their religion. Circumcision, which distinguished them ineffaceably from the surrounding pagans, was insisted upon rigorously, and the act became a ceremony....The concept of the Sabbath, strongly reinforced by what they learned from Babylonian astronomy, became the focus of the Jewish week.... The Jewish year was now for the first time punctuated by the regular feasts: Passover...; Pentecost....; Tabernacles... and as the consciousness of individual responsibility sank into their hearts, the Jews began to celebrate too the New Year in memory of creation, and the Day of Atonement in anticipation of judgment.
From what is written in Ezekiel 18 it appears that the only atonement for intentional sin is repentance and return to right behavior. Jesus preached repentance not sacrifice. Message 32

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2004 9:27 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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