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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 301 of 331 (902220)
11-19-2022 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by ringo
11-19-2022 12:11 PM


Re: Two Sides To Every Argument
Responded to wrong person. Fix on way

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 11-19-2022 12:11 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 302 of 331 (902221)
11-19-2022 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Phat
11-19-2022 12:08 PM


If you say so
You are a christian in name not in action. That's ok. So is the Orange Shitgibbon, mikey pence, mags taylor green, most of the GQP and all the other MAGAt's.

Fine company I am sure.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 12:08 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-19-2022 12:58 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3698
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 303 of 331 (902223)
11-19-2022 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Theodoric
11-19-2022 12:50 PM


Re: If you say so
That's ok. So is the Orange Shitgibbon, mikey pence, mags taylor green, most of the GQP and all the other MAGAt's.

Fine company I am sure.
More like dog shit tracked in on the carpet.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 12:50 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 3:20 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 304 of 331 (902226)
11-19-2022 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Tanypteryx
11-19-2022 12:58 PM


Re: If you say so
The peanut gallery has done exactly what I predicted it would do. It has conflated Republican/Conservative ideals with evangelical Christianity. And vilified both.
So let's examine Conservative ideals and see what precisely is so wrong with them.
Ten Conservative Principles
quote:
First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order. That order is made for man, and man is made for it: human nature is a constant, and moral truths are permanent.
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity. (...)When successful revolutionaries have effaced old customs, derided old conventions, and broken the continuity of social institutions—why, presently they discover the necessity of establishing fresh customs, conventions, and continuity; but that process is painful and slow, and the new social order that eventually emerges may be much inferior to the old order that radicals overthrew in their zeal for the Earthly Paradise.
Conservatives are champions of custom, convention, and continuity because they prefer the devil they know to the devil they don’t know.
Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription. Conservatives sense that modern people are dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, able to see farther than their ancestors only because of the great stature of those who have preceded us in time. Therefore conservatives very often emphasize the importance of prescription—that is, of things established by immemorial usage, so that the mind of man runneth not to the contrary. There exist rights of which the chief sanction is their antiquity— including rights to property, often. (seems like liberals want a giant social stew in which all money is everyone's money. )
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.
Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.

Thats only from one website. I could dig deeper and find a general consensus for what Conservatives purport to believe. Why are they evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-19-2022 12:58 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2022 3:32 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 3:48 PM Phat has replied
 Message 312 by ringo, posted 11-21-2022 11:00 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 305 of 331 (902227)
11-19-2022 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by ringo
11-18-2022 11:39 AM


Re: A word about social programs
ringo writes:
The US once showed such promise - but it's being taken over by a bunch of lying, thieving conservative assholes. And like the poor whites who fought to conserve slavery, you're on their side.
Nonsense. Why the peanut gallery chooses to vilify conservatism is way beyond me.
The great line of demarcation in modern politics, Eric Voegelin used to point out, is not a division between liberals on one side and totalitarians on the other. No, on one side of that line are all those men and women who fancy that the temporal order is the only order, and that material needs are their only needs, and that they may do as they like with the human patrimony. On the other side of that line are all those people who recognize an enduring moral order in the universe, a constant human nature, and high duties toward the order spiritual and the order temporal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 11-18-2022 11:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by ringo, posted 11-21-2022 11:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 306 of 331 (902228)
11-19-2022 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
11-19-2022 3:20 PM


Re: If you say so
You obviously aren’t going to find a real consensus.
Nobody witnessing the last 6 years can believe that modern “Conservatives” accept the second. Granted some Conservatives have hit back but they’re in the minority and condemned as “RINO”s.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 3:20 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 307 of 331 (902230)
11-19-2022 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
11-19-2022 3:20 PM


Re: If you say so
But the conservatives do not follow these principles. Show me one.
John Kenneth Galbraith - Wikipedia

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 3:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 11-20-2022 9:28 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 310 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 2:26 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 308 of 331 (902247)
11-20-2022 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Theodoric
11-19-2022 3:48 PM


Countering Galbraiths extreme Liberalism...
Liberals are greedy for power and control. They want everybody to fall in line, under the guise of social altruism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 3:48 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2022 10:37 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 315 by ringo, posted 11-21-2022 11:14 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 309 of 331 (902249)
11-20-2022 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
11-20-2022 9:28 AM


Re: Countering Galbraiths extreme Liberalism...
The thing about uncle miltie(do you know who he is?) is that many of his ideas and theories have shown to be bullshit and he was a failure as an economist and a policymaker.
First of all the quote I presented was about conservatives. Friedman was not a conservative, he was a libertarian.
Milton Friedman's "Shareholder" Theory Was Wrong - The Atlantic
Milton Friedman: a study in failure | Richard Adams | The Guardian
If he was a truly honest person he would looked at the western socialist countries for his comment instead of the authoritarian countries that he admired. Look into his support of Pinochet in Chile, his admiration of the chinese governement.
Your turn. Criticize Galbraith.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 11-20-2022 9:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16627
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 310 of 331 (902260)
11-21-2022 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Theodoric
11-19-2022 3:48 PM


Re: If you say so
After reading about him, I found that I honestly couldn't criticize him. He had a great career and wrote some thought-provoking books. I initially reacted to his comment on Republicans and greed but found that I myself took the quote out of context.
I withdraw my argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 11-19-2022 3:48 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Theodoric, posted 11-21-2022 11:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 311 of 331 (902267)
11-21-2022 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Phat
11-19-2022 12:33 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:
I was referring to the sheep and goats judgement.
The answer remains the same: a good father wouldn't do that. The "father" analogy breaks down.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 12:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 312 of 331 (902275)
11-21-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Phat
11-19-2022 3:20 PM


Re: If you say so
Phat writes:
The peanut gallery has done exactly what I predicted it would do. It has conflated Republican/Conservative ideals with evangelical Christianity.
Using you as an example, the conflation works.
Phat writes:
And vilified both.
And rightly so. Note how Jesus vilified the Pharisees for the same behavior as yours.
First, the conservative believes that there exists an enduring moral order.
And yet you can never tell us what that "absolute" morality is. You're afraid to discuss it.
Second, the conservative adheres to custom, convention, and continuity.
Like the customs of racism and sexism. Conservatives keep the same polices year after year, century after century, without regard to whether they work or not.
Conservatives sense that modern people are dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, able to see farther than their ancestors only because of the great stature of those who have preceded us in time.
They have contempt for people.
Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence.
So Trump is no conservative.
Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety.
Different shades of white?
Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectability.
They would do better to think in terms of improvability.
Seventh, conservatives are persuaded that freedom and property are closely linked.
THEIR freedom and THEIR property, nobody else's.
Eighth, conservatives uphold voluntary community, quite as they oppose involuntary collectivism.
Community is not voluntary. It's a contract. It's binding.
Ninth, the conservative perceives the need for prudent restraints upon power and upon human passions.
So again, Trump is no conservative. He wants to be dictator for life.
Tenth, the thinking conservative understands that permanence and change must be recognized and reconciled in a vigorous society.
Oxymoron and boldfaced lie. Conservative want to be stuck in the ninteenth century forever.
quote:
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. -- John Stuart Mill
Phat writes:
I could dig deeper and find a general consensus for what Conservatives purport to believe.
I'd like it if you would DISCUSS what you've already said. No need to Gish-gallop all over the Internet trying to find something good about conservatives.
Phat writes:
Why are they evil?
See above.

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 3:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 3:19 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7848
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 313 of 331 (902276)
11-21-2022 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Phat
11-21-2022 2:26 AM


Re: If you say so
Did you research uncle miltie? Do you support his "screw the little people" theory of economics?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Phat, posted 11-21-2022 2:26 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 314 of 331 (902279)
11-21-2022 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
11-19-2022 3:27 PM


Re: A word about social programs
Phat writes:
Nonsense.
How so?
Phat writes:
Why the peanut gallery chooses to vilify conservatism is way beyond me.
Because you refuse to think.
Phat writes:
On the other side of that line are all those people who recognize an enduring moral order in the universe, a constant human nature, and high duties toward the order spiritual and the order temporal.
Nonsense. Conservatives recognize no moral order except "grab what you can". They fail to understand that human nature (except theirs) is improving.
(See, THAT is how you point out that something is nonsense: you explain WHY it is nonsense.)

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 11-19-2022 3:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20492
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 315 of 331 (902281)
11-21-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
11-20-2022 9:28 AM


Re: Countering Galbraiths extreme Liberalism...
Phat writes:
Liberals are greedy for power and control. They want everybody to fall in line, under the guise of social altruism.
You make my point about conservatives. Nothing can change your mind, no matter how many times you're shown that it's wrong.
"A society that puts equality before freedom with get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."
Note how the US was founded on the principle of "freedom" - yet it took almost a hundred years of "freedom" to abolish slavery - and a hundred and fifty years later, the "freedom" is still not equal. Your Goober Friedman is playing fast and loose with his definitions.
And he's saying that greed is a good thing?

Come all of you cowboys all over this land,
I'll teach you the law of the Ranger's Command:
To hold a six shooter, and never to run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns.
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 11-20-2022 9:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
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